To think if more emphasis was put on the arts in schools then core subjects would fall into place

[ConfuciousSayWhat]

I get that the funds aren't there for the arts and that in times of funding cuts they are the first thing to go, but Aibu to think the arts support academic learning?

Music opens up maths, languages, science
Drama opens up literature and languages
Art opens up maths, physics, biology

Nevermind how they feed into technology, design and architecture.

Aibu to be saddened at the loss of focus on the arts in schools?

Those that love it try to force it on everyone else.

When? Sounds like you've had a bad experience of that (unless you mean the fact PE and the arts are even on the curriculum?)

I don't have a creative bone in my body and neither does ds, he dropped it all as soon as he could. I don't think anyone should be made to do art, drama or music to the detriment of something they like and are good at.

That said, there's a definite place in life for those things, I'd hate to live in a world with no beauty or music, I'm just happy for someone else to make it, lol

*Singing, music and drama are OK if you are into that kind of thing. Its a bit like PE. Those that love it try to force it on everyone else.

It's bad teaching in both cases that is the problem really isn't it?*

Well that can flipped around to anything right away. I hated maths, science, IT and it wasn't that the teaching was bad it was because I just didn't want to be doing them. Just because you didn't like a subject doesn't mean a teacher is bad

I don't think anyone should be made to do art, drama or music to the detriment of something they like and are good at.

Absolutely! But the current problem (and especially with the Ebacc) is that children who are good at Music, Art and Drama and who should be able to do all three subjects for GCSE because they want to are not being allowed by the schools. Instead they are forced to take a language or a humanity or triple science that they are not interested in or not that good at.

Sparklycat I agree that it's a shame to drop a single subject of you are good at it and enjoy it, regardless of what it is. 13 is so young to be making that sort of decision.

The problem is that you are allowed to drop the Arts in favour of the core subjects, or any academic subject for that matter.
A shame that state schools don't allow you to drop core/ academic subjects for the Arts.
A huge pity that state schools and many private won't allow all subject choices to come from within the Arts.
very few children really get to choose what they want to do and all to often the arts are seen as an after thought, extra curricular or a subject that can be dropped in favour of something happening in the school.

Not everybody is academic and some want to work within the arts where science or maths aren't really necessary.

A4

I tried to pm you last night, thank you so much for your post with the links.
This is so useful to us and I can't thank you enough.
Please if you have any suggestions for further reading, i'd be very grateful.

My dd is learning Italian French German and in about 6 years will need to learn Russian, if she follows a certain path.

Totally agree with your posts about languages btw.

"Not everybody is academic and some want to work within the arts where science or maths aren't really necessary."

I would have thought that maths for a career within the arts. You need really strong maths skills to budget well. Many sucessful artists, musicians or actors are self employed. Struggling artists, musicians or actors need a general education for if they need to find a day job.

I'm really not impressed with the Arts in DD1's secondary school - possibly just due to the curriculum. I would agree in theory they could be useful, provide transferable skills but ime they don't fulfil that brief. And you do need to have a talent - and it is pointless doing them if you don't...
DD1 does have a natural talent for music. She didn't learn an instrument because it is a bit of a shock no-one else in the family is or has ever been musical. She was chosen as one of a couple of children with natural musical ability to have Piano lessons at school for the last year of primary but turned them down (I was never consulted).
At the end of her first year at secondary she had to drop an arts subject. I was told that she wouldn't be able to do Nat 5 (like a GCSE, we are in Scotland) as she wasn't already learning an instrument, she would have never got to a high enough standard to pass in the time available - even if she took up an instrument then. Which I think is pretty exclusive - depends on parents paying for private tuition outside school, prior to starting secondary. (She is now having private lessons in Guitar and I'm trying to get Piano lessons for her)
So she did Art and Drama instead. She has her own style of drawing - graphic/cartoon style . The Art curriculum was very prescribed, fine arts based - which she wasn't particularly good at but also she would never get to do the kind of art she like... so she dropped that at the end of third year.

She kept Drama -as others have said I thought it was an active subject and it has transferable skills - would help her gain confidence and be good for eg public speaking etc. Except for the first 3 years the class was disrupted by difficult pupils - ones that had done drama as an easy subject and the teacher was useless at controlling the class. It is only in the last year that they seem to have made any progress and from what I can make out the teacher is only really interested in the pupils that are planning to make a career in performing (the ones that are already performing one way or another outside school - doing dance or theatre classes). DD1 will be lucky to scrape a pass and if anything it has knocked her self confidence...
If she had her choices again I would advise her to drop all the arts subjects as soon as possible. Do something like home economics instead -it would be more useful...

No, they wouldn't. Ex teacher here. Core subjects only "fall in place" if they are studied. The North East is full of secondaries that have abundant visual arts - drama - music, etc. and discharge a huge number of illiterate 16-year-olds who leave with no GCSEs and become NEETs.

NewLife4Me I've changed my PM settings so you're welcome to try again. Is there anything particular you're looking for more information on?

ReallyTired,

That is their job though, they don't have another job, surely.
We have struggled over the years, both me and dh when we both worked.
Neither of us would have considered a day job, it's just not done.
Sometimes education can be an added income but once you have a job as a teacher you can kiss goodbye to most work as you become unavailable for work at the level that counts teachers out.
A bit of private teaching ad hoc where you don't need to be relied upon can work.
My dh finds Skype helpful in this respect and has work all over the world.

unlucky

I think you have just identified the difference between schools and locations tbh.
Another problem seems to be the lack of consistency.
My friends son played drums, started them in y10 to take GCSE in y11.
He failed grade 1 and ended up with a B at GCSE, there are others I know of who can't play instruments who have passed with good grades.
Then you hear of others who say they need to be a grade 5 to get a good grade.
I'm sure no other subject at GCSE is like this.

The Arts can certainly 'open' other things up for varying reasons.

They are also great mentally. I do think kids should be engaged more in the arts but perhaps just more of a pleasurable level with the option to pursue further or just personally throughout life.

I don't know what school clubs and lunch activities etc are like these days but encouraging art based activities and interests more is pretty good for current and future mental wellbeing as well as all the other benefits. How many people are struggling with emotions, depression,stress etc these days? Music and art are often used as therapies, if you have already had your expression and enjoyment of the expressions of others encouraged surely that's just setting you up with your own form of 'self help' naturally?

Oh and maths and music go very well together!

Newlife4me

How do you manage your tax return if you are not competent with maths. How do you work out if the fee from a performance is going to cover your costs with out Maths? I assume that musicians still have to do the weekly shop at the supermarket and live within a budget.

TripTrap

I totally agree with you, music opened up languages for my dd, she would never have found a liking or ability otherwise.
As I said up thread music and maths can go well together and I know of several gifted mathematicians who are good at music, but have yet to see it in reverse.
Not to say it doesn't exist though.
My dd hates it when people ask if she is good at maths, or worst still proclaim she must be good, as she can't hide her embarrassment that she has extra support with maths. It used to upset her as she didn't know how to answer and didn't want strangers to know. She is getting better at handling it now though.

ReallyTired

I don't have a Maths GCSE, a rather bundled scrape through level 2.
We have an accountant for business and as long as we know what change we need when we grocery shop, and can do basics, what more is needed?
I can measure for curtains and carpets, add take away and multiply. I can use a calculator and can tell the time.
I don't mean to be flippant or difficult but I don't see how anybody would need more than basics to get by.
Performance pay is easy, there are few expenses from this, but we just keep receipts and you soon get used to knowing what is a good offer.
I believe ks3 maths is sufficient to get by in life, I have never struggled honestly.

new at the pre choices parents evening I was told if she didn't have at least Grade 5 she wouldn't be allowed to even start the Nat5 class at the start of 4th yr. (They do Nat 5s a year earlier than GCSE's so at the end of 4th Yr). Don't know if that is a nationwide thing or just the school ...but it does seem inconsistent...

unlucky

I believe you honestly it's ridiculous.
I have heard others say the same as you so know it's true.
Likewise have heard of people being told they could start an instrument in y10 and have lessons of an LA peri teacher.
Others have been offered keyboard (not piano), drums, bass and told they can USE these just spare instruments bought in for GCSE use.No lessons unless they pay.

I think everybody should have the same chance to learn an instrument and hate that it can be elite and unavailable to some.
I hate that there can be bad teachers who don't recognise and nurture talent and advise what is available.
I hate the inconsistencies and the fact that there are opportunities for children in some areas but parents don't support and encourage.
I could go on for ever, it's a soap box of mine

Newlife, a career in the arts is cut throat and lots of people fall along the wayside. A student needs a plan b. A lot of employers will not even interview a candidate if they do not have at least a GCSE at grade c standard. I am surprised that someone could be accepted for a conservatoire or a music degree with out a really basic level of education.

People learn maths at different speeds and maths skills get rusty. Most people with a grade c in maths would not be able to pass a GCSE if they sat it 5 years after they had left school. Children are taught maths to a level beyond what they need so that remember basic maths for the rest of their life.

GCSE music is a little odd. Certainly you don't need GCSE music to A level.

DD had 9 GCSEs & 2 BTecs and she is still struggling with the paperwork at vocational school - and even Dancers need enough maths to work out a budget, calculate self assessment & save enough to pay her tax!!

ReallyTired

If you spoke to the dc at dd school they'd be at the suggestion of a plan B, the majority couldn't even contemplate not going into the industry.
It's not often a student doesn't go to a conservatoire or Uni to study music.
The leavers destination show this year on year.
The odd person decides on medicine or law but they are certainly rare as the school doesn't really teach subjects compatible at this level.

My experience is the ones who enter the industry and work at top level wouldn't consider a plan B, maybe it's this narrow mindedness that gets them where they want to be.

Katy
I understand you need the basics of Maths to survive at anything in life, but these skills don't necessitate a GCSE.
There is no way you'd be allowed to do all those GCSE or a Btec at dd school.
I think iirc it's 8 GCSE's and the most 3 A levels, some only do 2.
I suppose what I'm saying is vocational Higher Ed, don't always look for conventional routes and qualifications for entry.

Dd will do 9 GCSE's & was (until the new 1-9 palaver) predicted to get As & A*s

I think you do have to consider plan b though. Many of dh's conservatoire contemporaries are working in areas where they need academic qualifications even those who are still earning a living in music.

They don't look for qualifications but she is doing a level 6 diploma now - and is looking to convert that to a degree as soon as she can (cost willing)

& she is considering what she will do at 30/35 when she will 'have to get a proper job' as she puts it - the GCSEs will enable an access qualification (currently that may change) for a more 'normal' degree as a mature student

What the elite do is often less important; arts are vital for children at the lower end of the academic spectrum, helpful for those in the middle and often take it or leave it for higher end academics.

But if you look at the top kids at the top unis I imagine more play an instrument/sing than not

I love the fact that you can walk into a college of FE with no GCSE's but a decent portfolio of Art work and be able to study for a Degree after taking a combination of level 1-3 quals.
For people with SEN who don't meet the conventional GCSE's and A levels this can be the difference between being able to do what they want and a job they hate.

I suppose the plan B idea is something that I will have to beg to differ about, but certainly a great conversation and debate.
I suppose it depends if you would consider doing other things to what you would ideally like to do and what sort of compromises if any you are prepared to make.
My dh doesn't really work in areas where quals are important, his audiences don't tend to ask for them, they look for his ability to move them in some way. He has a graduate diploma, all that was offered in his field all those years ago.
Also 5 O levels and 2 A levels, also all that was offered all those years back.
Maybe if he'd done more qualifications over the years he wouldn't be the player he is now, when times were hard he'd have reverted to becoming a teacher in a school/ conservatoire rather than musician.

I am a strong believer a child should follow their dreams, but the majority of specialist music, drama or dance schools do make sure the child has a general education as well. Lack of GCSE maths or English can really hold you back in the everyday world. Bad luck (for example serious injury) can end a career in the performing arts. Also a child may well change their mind about a career in music.

The EBAC is ridiculous and I have really had to argue for my son to be allowed to drop geography and history in favour of music and drama. He wants to be a computer programmer at the moment.

Potential computer programmers need the chance to develop an appreciation of the performing arts. They are the ones who will be paying NewLife's bills. Without a core of non musicians going to concerts/plays etc. or playing for their children to learn music there will be no elite musicians or dancers or actors.