To turn down a place at a hugely oversubscribed school?

[WillowB]

Apologies but more of a WWYD
Will try & keep it as brief as possible & I do appreciate this is a bit of a first world problem but I'm losing sleep over it so here goes...

DD is 4 starts school in Sept. (Have another DS 6 months) live in a fairly nice 4 bed house on a big newish housing estate which has an excellent primary 5 mins from our house all good so far. However the local primary is tiny and only takes 30 children each year and as a result there are hundreds of first choice applications for a few places. We live fairly close to the school and have been lucky enough to secure a place for DD in sept.

The local secondary is dire. In and out of special measures and pretty rough. I really don't like the prospect of sending DCs there so realistically we will have to move before the end of primary school into the catchment of a decent secondary. I hate the thought of this as I live our house & we can't afford anything as nice in 'better' areas but needs must.
With this in mind I'm pondering turning down the place at our local school and going for our second choice school in a nearby village. This is where we would move to eventually. On paper this school isn't as good in terms of results although I loved the feel & ethos when I looked round.

Just torn over whether I'm being crazy to turn down a place that at such a popular school for one that isn't quite as good but I would feel mean uprooting the DCs in 4 or 5 years if we waited to until Y4/Y5 to move DD when I could have sent them there from the off. (DS would have started school or be about to start by this point too)

Anyone been in a similar situation? Would love to hear what you did. I'm so useless with decisions! Thank you if you managed to read all of that!

I am planning (more praying and hoping) to move to near a great secondary before ds (currently in reception of a good and small school - rural and 2-3 mile drive away) has to apply for secondary. However we would (given the opportunity) move as late as possible - so we would have a year of a longer drive to his current primary. Could you not do it that way round and enjoy a few years of walking to your local school ?

Go with the primary school that you have got into. Worry about the secondary school later-there is plenty of time & primary education is so important. Many people underestimate just how important primary school education is but it sets you up for life & builds confidence & self esteem.
The secondary school could well change by the time your little one is there.

Is it actually a named feeder in the admission process, though, or just a feeder in terms of practicalities? If the latter, then less to worry about as their friendships change so much in Year 7 anyway.

And even if two children are at different schools, it's less of a problem if one of them is older and more independent. And she might not mind moving if you gave her the option anyway, if she has made friends in the village. It wouldn't have to happen immediately that you moved there, but could just be an option for some point in the future, as long as the commute was doable.

by junior age, she might be keen on the school with more facilities etc, particularly if it's bigger - the village school might seem cosier and non-academic etc, great for the smallest children, but not necessarily for the older - though it might be as well. Just worth thinking about how her needs will change throughout primary, and how the schools will suit her then.

I'd also wonder why the village school is undersubscribed - might just be location. But might be more than that. Sports and community activities are important, but also need to make sure the basics are being taught well.

True, it's hard to imagine her as anything other than a small person!

I think it's because they have a bizarre pupil admission number. Two form entry. Pretty high considering the size of the village.

Taking on board the advice about moving children in year 4/5/6 do they make friends again easily at this age?

Circumstances different, but issues similar.....my 3 DC ended up going to a village primary about 15 mins drive away. When DC1&2 went to secondary, I transferred DC3 at the start of year 4 to our local village school. He had no problems settling in and making new friends. Now year 5 and very happy there.

I don't think it is worth travelling elsewhere just so your DC can be in primary with the same kids that will move up to secondary, or in a feeder school for a particular school (since it depends on where you live, not which school you go to).

Also, you can't absolutely say where you'll move to, and it might turn out different from how you're thinking....so I would take up the school place for now and keep an open mind for later.

Also, kids are really very flexible (mostly)

Secondary school is a long way off. A lot could happen in 7 years and it did to several secondary schools round here, both up and down.

Concentrate on what will meet your needs now.

Children often commute to secondary schools, it doesn't have to be the one 5 minutes down the road. As terrifying as that sounds, they aren't 4 when they do this. They grow and mature

I travelled over 3 miles and 2 bus rides to my own secondary school.

We did move to get into catchment for an outstanding secondary but I kept my children in the outstanding primary school. We needed a much bigger house and couldn't afford one in the area we lived in. So we moved 2.5 miles away which meant much more house for less money. I drive Ds2 to primary school, Ds1 walks to his secondary.

I'd actively avoid an Outstanding primary. They get that grade most of the time by an obsessive focus on OFSTED, rather than the best interests of the children. Tiny kids shouldn't be pushed academically - it can be counter-productive.

Sorry but comments like this crop up time and time again on here and they really piss me off. I work in an outstanding primary and it is a fantastic school with happy staff, children and parents.

When we went from good to outstanding it really was deserved because our children get a great school experience and it's about so much more than academic achievement. Our year 6s aren't stressed out with the pressure of SATs as so many parents on Mumsnet claim their children are, because they aren't pressured and they don't spend months practising SATs papers.

I'm in Scotland, where the vast majority of state educated kids go to their catchment school, so what I'm about to say may not be as true for you.

I have had both situations where some of my kids have been catchment, and when they haven't. I found that even a 10 minute drive really isolated them from their peers, and meant fewer invitations. Almost everybody else was walking distance to each other's houses. It was much easier for friendships to form when it was a short walk. Some mums can't be bothered with a drive (or don't have a car) to pick up from play dates, so only encourage their kids to form friendships with those close by.

It also helps the parent build a support network to help out with a school run if they have one child sick and, and another needs to get to school.

As the kids get older, they can walk round to a friend's house by themselves, and lots of parents want their kids to be able to do this too. Not being able to do this is a faff for parents still having to ferry around, removes spontaneity for the children and makes it harder for them to develop independence and self travel skills for secondary school.

If this would be true for you, I'd send her to the local school. If lots of people have to drive to the school it doesn't matter so much.

Nope. Take the place.

I'd go for small village primary, and a less subscribed one. Similarly I agree not to worry too much about secondary yet, a lot can change in however many years.

Do not base you decision on primary on a secondary choice you will have to make in 6 years time. A secondary can go from dire to outstanding in 6 years, and vice versa. Around year 4 start looking at secondaries and making plans.

I really think it depends where you live. As I said up thread, the senior schools where I live have not changed in terms of desirability / results since at least the 80s when I went to high school a few miles away. If that's the same in the OP's area, then she is quite right to consider this as a long term decision.

Op we are in the same position regarding loving our walking-distance primary, but not liking any of the in-catchment secondaries at the moment. We are sending our daughter to the local primary anyway, because:

1. for the next few years having her friends living near her, being able to walk to school and clubs, and having childminder options for wrap around will have more of a positive impact on our/DCs lives than planning six years ahead for secondary.

2. schools change so much that in six years we could be gagging to get in to one in catchment, and the supposedly better ones could have taken a dive. It's totally unpredictable.

3. I would much rather move house in yr 5 or 6 into a better secondary catchment and drive from a new house to their current school for one or two years, than do it now and have to do it for six years. Also, all the primary kids are dispersed anyway when it comes to secondary, so I don't think going to a different school to her friends at that point is such a big deal.

In your case I'd take the primary offer you have and worry about secondary nearer the time.

If I were you I would accept the school place you've been offered. Secondary schools can change drastically over seven years and it only takes a new head teacher who knows what they're doing to pull it out from requires improvement to oustanding.

I did something similar myself actually and whilst it worked out well in the end it was touch and go. My eldest is 14 now and when we had to apply for him I had very clear ideas which primary and secondary schools I wanted him to go to. There was a nice and rather good primary on our doorstep, I really liked it but because of the criteria (faith school) if my Ds went to that school then he wouldn't stand a chance at getting into the secondary school as it wasn't a feeder school. So we chose a school just under three miles away that was a feeder school (and equally as good as the other school) and as the criteria stood he would be top priority for the secondary.

Well just before he started year 6, so in his final year, the secondary school, after a long consultation period with the LA and other parents decided to change it's criteria to include the primary were we lived as a feeder school. My Ds loved his school and I don't regret sending him there but in hindsight if we had known the secondary school would have changed it's criteria down the line then we would have opted to send my Ds to our local primary that is a five minute walk away as opposed to a 10-15 minute drive away. It would have been so much easier. I know it's not the same as the situation you're in but I suppose what I'm saying is anything can happen and the secondary school could turn itself around so make sure you have a really good think about it before making your mind up.

I thought I had done this. I bought a house in catchment for a good primary and a good secondary. But life happened - and now my son goes to a secondary school 12 miles away, the selective school I looked into as an "insurance policy"in case catchment in the excellent local school shrunk suddenly. But my son developed talents/interests that were better suited to that school than the local one. When he saw the school, he begged us to let him go there.

So given my experience, I would go to the local primary and wait til Y4 or so to start making choices as it probably isn't clear what will work best for your child at 11 right now.

You don't know if you will be able to find a property in the village or what might happen to you between then and now (change in job, change in income etc). SO make the choices based on what you know (ie the school is good, you like your house) rather than what you don't.

I'd accept the place, and send your youngest when the time comes.

As pp have said the local secondary may drastically change in the next 7 years, one of our local secondaries were dire a few years ago and now is one of the better schools in the area.

Even if you do move in a few years for secondary school for your eldest there's no reason you can't drive the youngest back to this primary for their last couple of years before secondary. It's no different a prospect then driving your eldest to the next village for primary now.

Plus you'll kick yourself if you spend years driving your eldest to the next village for primary school and then the local secondary improves drastically and she ends up going there anyway.

OP I have skipped a few comments but I completely understand what you mean about a bad school not changing. People are very quick to tell you failing schools change but there are 3 schools in my town that won't change. The people who live near them won't change and the people therefore going to them won't change. No matter how good the staff are etc I will not have my child in those schools. It's for that reason that we are actually relocating next year.

I should point out that DD is only 2 yet when I asked for advice on primaries (in the country we are moving to) I kept getting people telling me to find a good secondary and work backwards. So the comments on here about not worrying about secondary yet are slightly baffling.

That said I don't know what I'd do in your situation but one thing I would not be worried about is a primary age child moving schools. I teach year 5 but have taught all of primary at some point and have never had a problem with a new child not settling in.

I agree with Iamcheeseman. The local secondary school where we are has not had the greatest reputation for 40 years now, and is not looking as though it's going to change any time soon either.

For this reason, lots of people round where we live have started to go to church. ;) However, the squeeze on places at this other church-related school has got very bad now.

We had a choice of two local schools. School A is like a high school in year 6 and has a lot of emphasis on good academic results. School B is more nurturing and is still like a primary school and has a lower emphasis on academic results.
Both have similar results in the year 2 and year 6 SATs. School A is now 'unsatisfactory' and School B is 'good' - when we chose School B it was frowned upon by some who saw School A as the best school to go to because of it's focus on academic success.
Go with what you think is best when you looked round and don't go by academic results or OFSTED reports at primary schools. You also have no guarantee of a place at your second choice of school.