To have just realised that Mr Collins got Mrs Collins in the family way.

[squoosh]

Have just re-read Pride & Prejudice for the first time in yonks and at the end Mr Collins mentions 'dear Charlotte’s situation, and his expectation of a young olive-branch. How had I not noticed that before?

I'd always imagined dear Charlotte avoiding that messy business by keeping him occupied with his sermon writing and his gardening and his pash on Lady Catherine.

But she was a woman who knew what she wanted so I wouldn't be surprised if she was the one who took conjugal matters in hand.

Good old P&P, the book that keeps on giving.

With Willoughby and Eliza (number 2, Brandon's ward), the problem isn't so much that he seduces her and gets her pregnant outside marriage, but that he then buggers off and leaves her without much money or any way of contacting him.

It isn't the getting-women-pregnant that's the problem, but the not supporting them financially. In theory fathers were legally obliged to pay towards supporting their children, even if they weren't legitimate, and unmarried mothers were coerced into naming the father publicly.

Eliza's never going to do that well because she's tainted by her mother; I'm trying to remember which novel it is where there's a great long discussion about how a female character has to be avoided because they will inevitably have been corrupted by her divorced mother's example. Doesn't matter how virtuous this girl is, doesn't matter who's brought her up, she's already essentially considered damaged goods before she gets started.

You're right about the economics, but you're missing the severity of the social sanction. A woman who was pregnant outside of marriage couldn't be visited by her family or her friends because of the 'contagion' of example (the same thing as in the divorced mother's case). She would be utterly isolated from all 'respectable' female society, and in a small society that was a serious matter because it wasn't like you could just hang out with men instead (those who visited might well have dubious motives- a fallen woman was fair game'). It was not only economically precarious, but terribly lonely.

(The moral contagion argument is why Lydia's behaviour is so dangerous for all of the Bennett girls, not just herself).

I sometimes imagine Mr Bennet had a longstanding amiable arrangement with a very clever, conversable woman of his own age, possibly a widow. They possibly didn't actually sleep together, he just liked clever talk. Or possibly they did sleep together because it was occasionally nice to just have sex without the pressure of trying to conceive a son or face your wife and daughters being homeless after your death. Plus I always imagine Mrs Bennet being a non-stop talker during sex...

(The only problem with this theory is that he appears to live in his library, and that you clearly couldn't fart in the vicinity of Meryton without Aunt Phillips being aware of it... )

I could see Bingley as being fleeced by some expensive courtesan, and Darcy having to wade in and sort it out...

The men in Emma would have an easier time having access to sex outside of wedlock because of Highbury's proximity to London. Frank Churchill would definitely have a regular mistress, and I'm sure that Mr Elton would have had some sexual encounters before marrying.

Well, in Longbourne, poor old Hill was Mr Bennett's long-standing mistress!

Yes, for women being pregnant outside marriage was rubbish, for men, though, there wasn't really any moral opprobrium so long as they provided for their illegitimate children. Money solved everything for them, morally. The difference between the 'bad' men and the 'good' ones in Austen (and C18th/earl C19th novels generally) isn't that the good ones don't have sex, it's that they provide for their offspring, they don't ruin virgins, and if they do, they make a nice fat financial settlement on them.

It's not uncommon in C18th novels for the hero/ heroine's love interest to have an illegitimate child whom they acknowledge. Very few people expected rich young men to keep it in their pants till their mid or even late twenties.

Plenty of widows would have had sexual relationships, especially once pregnancy was less of an issue. I'm sure plenty of men had nice arrangements with sexy rich widows in their 30s-50s

Dunno about rich sexy widows in their 30s - they would have been risking everything. I very much doubt a woman without a decent cover story (e.g., a husband) would have been prepared to do much shagging about until well past the menopause.

True. There was rudimentary contraception though

Plus, don't forget, abortion was legal till 1803, and widely tolerated after that.

Bloody dangerous though, and not enormously reliable.

Mrs Jennings, and probably many others, certainly thought that Eliza Williams was Colonel Brandon's own child, but it didn't prevent her thinking him a perfectly suitable match for either Marianne or Elinor, with just the minor inconvenience of providing for her:
"Two thousand a year without debt or drawback—except the little love-child, indeed; aye, I had forgot her; but she may be ’prenticed out at a small cost, and then what does it signify?"

It always amazes me that Colonel Brandon & Mr Bennett both have £2000 a year & yet the Colonel seems to be wealthier. Perhaps because he hasn't had a wife & family draining his income? I've pondered on this many a time must get a life .

That's because he IS wealthier julia - you're absolutely right!

Colonel Brandon has £2000 a year from his estate, i.e. he has a whacking great house and land at Delaford which he exploits to make that cash.

Mrs Dashwood has £500 a year, out of which she has to find rent! Now if I'm remembering rightly, her problem is that she's a second wife, and after her husband's death she's in the power of her husband's son from his first marriage on the understanding that he will look after her. That son is persuaded by his greedy wife that he doesn't really need to look after his step-mother or step-sisters, so they settle the absolute minimum amount on them. They are basically genteely poor.

Ooops, posted too soon - Mr Bennett is supporting a much larger family than Colonel Brandon on his £2000 a year, but the real problem for the Bennetts is the entail, which means that none of the daughters will inherit, and Mrs Bennett could also be out on her ear should Mr Bennett die (the estate can only go to a male heir). Therefore, as women, all of the girls are in a much more precarious position. Someone asked earlier why the Bennetts keep having children - this is the reason, they're after a male heir who can secure the future of the entire family.

I'd forgotten about the colonel's estate

Whoops name change fail!

Exactly, it's the daughters. Mr Bennett is pretty rich and there's evidently enough to provide to a reasonable standard for gentlefolk. They're not wadded like the Darcys or Bingleys, but there's never any mention of debt. If that income and living standard were going to continue after Mr Bennett's death, there wouldn't be a problem.

Surely Brandon needs a male heir to inherit Delaford, as well.

The Colonel's estate at Delaford is also big enough to support a small parish living, as offered to Edward.

shove yes - the Dashwood money comes from the first Mrs. Dashwood, and is settled on her son after she dies. The older Mr Dashwood is unable to undo any of this to provide for the second Mrs. Dashwood and the girls.

Surely Brandon needs a male heir to inherit Delaford, as well

If Brandon has only daughters with Marianne, and Delaford is likewise entailed male, he presumably will have had the un-Mr Bennet-ish forethought to provide Marianne (who is likely to outlive him unless she dies in childbirth) and any daughters with dowries and/or money enough to live on should they have to leave Delaford if the heir takes over.

That's what a prudent parent/advisor on Marianne's side would be wanting to see put in place before the wedding.

There's so much stress on the Longbourn problem being the entail that I realise that I have no idea what the general situation on daughters inheriting was in JA's day. I would have presumed it was impossible that Jane would inherit Longbourn in any circumstances, even if it wasn't entailed...?

Dowager I guess it depends on whether or not Delaford is entailed. I don't think that's ever mentioned in S&S. I'm sure Col Brandon would like a son to 'carry on' the family name, etc, etc, but it's quite possible that he'd be equally happy to settle the estate (or a goodly sum) on a daughter. Especially after knowing how low both Elizas were brought through lack of funds.

I agree re the Bennets. Brandon running a 'bachelor establishment' on a large estate is vastly different to Mr Bennet having to support an improvident wife and 5 daughters (two of which are equally as improvident) on an estate of equal size. I also expect that Mr Bennet probably is content to let the estate run as it always has been rather than try to improve the income from it whereas I can see Col Brandon trying to increase the income from Delaford upon marriage and especially when the children start coming along.

I don't think it's about whether or not Brandon's happy to settle the estate on a daughter (if it were that easy, why didn't Mr Bennett just do that?), but the rules of primogeniture mean there is no choice, but for any estate to go to a male heir.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, we see exactly the same (fictions) situation playing out 100 years later in Downton Abbey.

*fictitious

Mr Bennett had no choice because his estate was entailed on Mr Collins, while Norland was entailed not only on John Dashwood, but on his son after him. Which would explain why John was so penny-pinching and keen to expand and improve the estate, as he would need to put aside enough money to provide for Fanny and any daughters he might later have. This, of course, is what Mr Bennett should have done, but failed to do, and what Elinor and Marianne's father intended when he inherited, but didn't live long enough to do.

But not all estates were entailed - for example, the Ferrars estate presumably was not, or else Edward would have inherited it on the death of his father, and his mother could not have done anything about it, or prevented him marrying whoever he chose.

Colonel Brandon's estate may or may not have been entailed, but as a single man who was not extravagant, he would probably have saved a large part of his income to provide not only for his future wife and daughters, but also for Eliza Williams.

Mr Bennet couldn't because the estate was 'entailed to heirs male'. And unentailed estate (such as Rosings Park in P&P) can be left to whoever the owner sees fit. As Lady Catherine says 'it was never seen as necessary (leaving to a male heir) in Sir Lewis DeBourgh's family' when she says she's glad the Longbourn estate will to go Mr Collins. It's clear that Anne DeBourgh will inherit Rosings and unite the property with Pemberly when she marries Darcy, as per the plans of their two mothers. A title must go to a male, but property/money can be left to whoever one wants unless there's an entail.

Downton was also entailed to heirs male.

Xpost with Rusty