to think it tales a special kind of wankbadger to fine the homeless *for being homeless*?

[TaintMyBag]

to fine the homeless for being homeless?

Our local council is instating Public Space Protection Orders which mean that police can fine people for being poor. It's mean, it's nasty and surely it's a waste of tax payer's money as well? They can be fined for sleeping rough or begging. Well surely this will be all that's needed to persuade them to not do that any more... they can just pay rent to avoid the fine.

engage.adur-worthing.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/save-as-PDF-458922-Draft-Public-Space-Protection-Orders-Worthing-10.12.16.pdf

I'm going to be debil's advocate here and say if this kind of measure goes hand-in-hand with the right level of support and outreach services to ensure that people street sleeping and begging have other options available to them, then isolated use of powers like these can be appropriate if they help deal with a persistent localised problem which has a significant impact on the wider public.

Poverty and lack of secure, affordable housing are major causes of homelessness, but the vast majority of homeless people aren't street-sleeping. There are a relatively small number of people that, whilst the term 'lifestyle choice' is utterly inappropriate, resist engaging with the services and support available and who are hard to help.

Wdigin
What an unpleasant and inaccurate post. Don't try to hijack a thread about a serious and concerning topic with lies about immigrants.

Taint
Thanks for highlighting this. I will sign the petition.

The same kind of wankbadger who thinks it's a lifestyle choice.

I've worked with Street homeless for many years and although not a lifestyle choice being Street homeless is sometimes the only life people can manage. When moved into accommodation, placements can very quickly break down, even with loads of support, and people are back on the street. I sometimes think we should actually start providing better services for this group, outreach medical care, more soup kitchens, more indoor spaces they can go to just get out of the cold, without having to sign up for everything settled accommodation requires, like bill paying, HB, looking after keys, etc.

TaintMyBag

Thank you - duly signed.

It's funny, after David Cameron reminded us that we have to stand up for Christian values in the UK, I felt so moved, I became a Christian, and studied the Bible deeply*. However, I can't quite find the passage about shitting on those less fortunate than yourselves. Clearly I need more practice.

Are there any experienced or advanced Christians out there who can point me in the right direction ?

*(This may be a tad hyperbolic .... :))

Well unfortunately bubbins this kind of measure has gone hand in hand with cut backs and the closure of night shelters. This isn't being done to be kind to the poor. And there are much better ways of helping.

Worthing Borough Council has 37 councillors (10 female councillors and 27 male councillors) in 13 wards. The following shows the political makeup and which political party is in control in Worthing

30 Conservative (in current overall political control)
4 Liberal Democrat
2 UKIP
1 Green

Agree with Fake (small amount of volunteer work) - the 'fine em' brigade is one end of the spectrum the 'give them a council house and all will be well ' is the other. It is sometimes a lifestyle choice as they can manage no other lifestyle and support services should be put in placthat recognise this. There is also much homelessnes that could be avoided just by the system being joined up and housing benefit being paid properly and administered well rather than by the suspicious shower of shit that seem to do it at the moment.

the next generation will judge us harshly for things like this.

The time to worry is when this generation judges us for this.

One of my abiding childhood memories was a book my aunt gave me - circa 1930s - about tragic children in history. It had a chapter on the princes in the tower, and a chapter on the Dauphin - son of Louis XVII. It was illustrated with scene from the revolution of the sans-cullotes parading under his prison window with heads on spikes ....

Worthing Council is also known for fighting to retain its right to say Christian prayers before all council meetings.

They still were doing so in March 2015 - not sure if that's still the case.

Bubbins
Surely all a measure like this does is move the hard to help people elsewhere. Rough sleepers who are hard to help may well be those who struggle most to function in society and are already isolated. Punishing them won't make them easier to help; it just pushes them away so they are easier to ignore.

I agree that proper support services ought to be in place but I suspect that most cash strapped councils aren't thinking that way.

I have less of an issue with punishing persistant begging but that is because in London it has become an organised operation in some areas with groups sent out to beg in certain places.

(DH is an immigrant and we didn't get a truck load of dosh either )

lurking do you not remember the passage where Jesus said to his followers "go forth and kick a homeless person and take his bread"?

Call yourself a Christian

fakename
Your post made me think of an old lady who lived in the doorway of a cinema in Camden Town years ago. The council had tried numerous interventions to get her into accomodation but they failed. In the end someone came up with a pragmatic solution where an allowance was paid to nearby market stall holders who used it to buy her food and clothing. I don't think she could cope or wanted to cope in "normal" life.

TaintMyBag

lurking do you not remember the passage where Jesus said to his followers "go forth and kick a homeless person and take his bread"?

Thank God for ctrl-F ! In fact, thank God for Jesus !

Call yourself a Christian

Wow ! I can understand why it's so hard to be a Christian, and why so many people take the easy option of unbelief. It's incredibly hard to repress my humanity in the name of God.

Call me a lightweight, but I don't think I'm cut out for this Christian malarkey, if it means such sacrifice and suffering. I'll have to stick to being an atheist with all that soul-destroying compassion.

I notice this is the council that thinks it's really important to pray before meetings. I guess that's to make themselves feel better ? If I was going to pray again, I'd rather it made other people better.

I've signed the petition. (I live in Scotland btw). Surely the council is choosing to offload the 'problem' of homeless people on to the local courts. It will just clog up the system I'd think.

What's wrong with begging? Charities employ people to stand on streets and ask you to sign up for direct debits after all - they're allowed. It seems like a violation of the right to free speech to make asking people for money illegal. It's not inciting anyone to violence or racial hatred surely.

We don't have a problem with persistent beggers in Worthing and I've never been hassled for money. A few buskers, a couple guys and their dogs with hats in front of them. I think the council just see them as unsightly .

If they really wanted to clean up the town they could start with the dozens of closed up shops fronts and the eye sore that is Teville gate. But no, just move the homeless out of area.

What's wrong with begging? Charities employ people to stand on streets and ask you to sign up for direct debits after all - they're allowed. It seems like a violation of the right to free speech to make asking people for money illegal. It's not inciting anyone to violence or racial hatred surely.

You know what, that's a fucking good point.

On our local spotted page someone posted a picture of two people sleeping roughing.
They called the police! And then complained that the police hadn't moved them on.

They went mad on the local Facebook page complaining about how the police did fuck all and these people were bringing down the town image.

He never considered that they had no where else to go.

Luckily most people told him to shut up and one person even went and took a hot meal to them

I'm not a tinfoil hatter, but it's curious that searching Google for "illegal to be homeless in Worthing" doesn't (yet) bring back many relevant results ...

They do this in a few other authorities and I got into a spirited debate with one of the councillors who advocates it whilst I was visiting home a few months back. The insistence that homelessness is a lifestyle choice, the denial of MH issues, the lack of support available and (and this is my favourite) the blind belief that £100/night fine was totally affordable because of all the "drugs money" the homeless make made me absolutely lost for words. There was no recognition of any other viewpoint on this.

There's not enough support for the homeless in this town and the councillors involved are pretty open that they just want their shitty town centre to not be "blighted" by rough sleepers. Punishing the homeless seems so far from a viable solution that it would be laughable if it weren't happening.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/conservative-council-set-to-fine-homeless-people-50-for-begging-in-worthing-a6971476.html

You have to search Worthing PSPO to find anything, as "illegal" sounds a bit harsh even though that's what it means

Here is the info on Worthign council. www.adur-worthing.gov.uk/news/pr16-032.html

When I lived in the Uk, the local council used to give the homeless £20 and a bus ticket to the next town.

Luckily most people told him to shut up and one person even went and took a hot meal to them

That's lovely. I am genuinely amazed every day at how many people think living on benefits or being homeless is some sort of fabulous option.

I see this thread has been posted on the FB page ...

To quote Billy Connolly ... "Hello World"

I stood outside my local M&S around Easter time (waiting for H to show up!)
there is a lady there who sells the Big Issue.
In the 15 mins I was there she was brought a 6 pack of hot cross buns by 1 person.
A large coffee from Starbucks by another.
And (weirdly) a bunch of daffodils by another.
I am in rural Scotland and begging is not common. Beggars are largely treated respectfully, from what I can see.

I bet she is glad she is not in Brighton.
Announcements on the train indeed.
What is WRONG with our society.

It is not illegal to beg. If so then all the chuggers should be arrested.
It is not illegal to sleep rough. It is rarely a choice and when it is (due to not being able to cope with anything else) then that choice has come about because a person has been repeatedly let down by 'the system'.

I remember learning about the Elizabethan Poor Laws at school.
We are returning to those times

Taint and Chazs - I tend to agree with you both, I just wanted to throw an alternative view into the mix. I think there have been examples where 'carrot and stick' approaches have been successful but not without controversy.

Bubbins I'd love to believe this was being done for the benefit of Worthing's homeless population but I can't find anything to support that. Look at what they call it on their website.

"Strengthening our work on Anti-Social Behaviour"

Asbos for the poor. Bastards.