To be livid almost to the point of feeling like going NC about this?

[georgetteheyersbonnet]

Just turned age 3 DD in the bath tonight, playing with her bath toys as usual, suddenly says to me: "Granny says Father Christmas doesn't exist because he's not real".

DH calls MIL immediately after bedtime: MIL says self-righteously in defence of this: "Oh, but I don't believe in lying to children". MIL can be an somewhat difficult character and has a bit of a history of undermining me and DH on parenting issues. She also has high-functioning ASD so can see the world in more rigid terms than most, which we normally try to make lots of allowances for.

Because of a recent period of both DH and me both being quite ill and having work problems and no childcare help and no other options to keep our jobs, MIL has been looking after DD more than we usually like. This has also resulted in some brattish behaviour from DD as she has been indulged much too much. MIL doesn't like to set boundaries for children either, so for example doesn't say anything if DD hits or pushes her or other children - something we aren't that happy about, as though we are pretty gentle with DD we also like to set clear limits on what is and isn't acceptable behaviour. However I appreciate that if someone's looking after my child as a favour then I can't dictate too much how they do it.

MIL does tend to like to feel like she has a special bond with DD that slightly undermine our authority as parents. But this latest has upset both me and DH terribly - she is only 3 and we'd have liked her to have some of the magic of FC for a few more years. My heart breaks thinking of how excited she was last Christmas and how much in awe of the magic and the whole experience. She isn't a child who is likely to forget what MIL has said, and I feel pretty devastated about such a nice thing being taken away from her just because MIL wants to feel self-righteous about "not lying". I hadn't dreamt that MIL would do something like this.

AIBU to be so upset about it? Am I overreacting? It feels like MIL has really crossed a line here. You just don't do that to someone else's child, do you, especially one so young?

So your gran has been helping out - during some touch times - and due I guess to the face she is asd she told granddaughter the truth (which can easily be fixed) - and you want to go nc??? Unless there is a major back story - yabu

I'd be pissed off too re the FC thing. My 6 year old still believes and my 9 and 11 year old play along.

I would get your daughter a t-shirt with "I'm with Granny" on it (you know the kind with an arrow) for any future outings!

But it's not feeling like going NC over the actual FC is it? The FC thing is just the manifestation of MIL deciding she knows what's best, ignoring parents wishes and even when it's spelled out still refusing to do what the parents want for their child.

Does ASD really make you stalk your own GC and pretend they are yours?

Some of it could be her ASD. Or she could just be a twat as well. I'm sure the 2 aren't mutually exclusive.

I'd be fuming if anyone told my DCs that FC wasn't real. Ffs, it's a few years of magic and I love that time of year and the build up and excitement.

And clearly the OP isn't going to go NC over FC. There's a lot more to it than that.

I'd say you need to out rules and boundaries in place with MIL. She should have no problem following rules. She is basically stalking her own GC which is weird and irritating.

What I find worrying is why wouldn't she want her own grand daughter to enjoy the magic of fc for as long as possible, what sort of person ruins it for a child like that.

Also I totally agree with nanny0gg, waiting outside your house is bot a 'quirk' neither is ringing for house 80 times til someone picks up. That is weird, controlling and stifling behaviour that she needs to stop.

I'd be making plans to move far, far away. The Santa thing I could live with but the sitting outside the house at 6am, waiting for your child to get up is scary.

she can perceive the social world as differently as she likes, but telling people her granddaughter is her daughter is not right in anyone's world.

Presumably the grandmother goes along with the rest of society with her clothes on in public and not randomly slapping vicars on the arse because of her differences.

so she should keep it buttoned re FC and her strange motherfetishes!

Spell it out to her OP and she will know where the line is.

The Father Christmas thing would annoy me. Calling my dd her daughter, parking outside at 6 am, calling 60/80 times in a day and my daughter playing up after a visit would all worry me very much. I wouldn't be letting her care for my daughter without me there.

It will be virtually impossible to cover all ground... and with the best will in the world, I think you do need to consider whether it's appropriate for her to be taking care of your dd alone if she is saying to other people in front of your daughter that she's hers etc.

I kind of hate even saying it because they obviously have a very lovely relationship and there is much love there and of course there are a lot of parents with ASD who raise fabulous kids... but "socially eccentric" in the way you have described it e.g. sitting outside at 6am, not setting limits or boundaries, saying that your daughter is hers, ringing hundreds of times a day is no small thing when you're talking about an adult caring for a child at the period of their life they're developing their own understanding of how the world operates socially.

I don't think your MIL is being "self righteous" or "indulgent", I think it may be the case from how you describe her that she might not have a lot of psychological flexibility around social behaviour full stop - her ideas of how the social world works may be very unique and unexpected. That's not to cast aspersions on her, by any means - but I'm not sure how your dd is likely to be able to integrate or make sense of some of this behaviour in her social context without your or her dad there.

I would say if you are seeing a difference in her behaviour, you really will benefit from tackling it very straightforwardly - I don't think the usual provisos about allowing another adult to do what makes most sense to them may apply in the same way if your MILs behaviour is quite out of the norm.

You have to stop the sitting outside. Tell her that she can pick her up at 8am or whatever and stick to it. Tell her to go home.

There is making allowances and then there is making allowances. Fair enough she interprets the world slightly differently however that doesn't mean she doesn't have to conform to rules that the rest of us have. Decide what is acceptable to you and create boundaries that she isn't allowed to cross. Be consistent.

Dd will accept your explanation of why Nanna doesn't believe in Santa. We've all had to have similar conversations when they hear things in the playground etc. She'll still get the magic because she will want to believe and will choose to ignore evidence to the contrary if the excuse is plausible. Have sharp words with mil and tell her that it doesn't matter what she thinks, she needs to do/say what you and dh want. Ditto tackle head on the calling her her daughter. That crosses the boundaries. Threaten to stop contact and carry it out for a short period if necessary. Once she knows you are serious she will conform. If she is that obsessive about dd, then she's not going to risk losing her by not carrying out your instructions.

A few foibles you can overlook as she is doing you a favour. But not massive ones like these. She needs dd more than you need her. Your dd is an important card up your sleeve. You don't have to put up with crap.

It's ok this can be fixed. I would tell your kiddo that grandma was being silly and where did she think all the presents came from if not from FC. Then, at Christmas get a personalised video from Portable North Pole ( website and app) and play her that......my daughter who is about to turn 4 was captivated with her video and asks to see it even now. I would address this though before MIL tackles the tooth fairy. Just because she s doing you a favour doesn't entitle her to "parent" in your absence. ( people who say that they're not going to "lie" to children are fucking joy sucking vampires and I can't stand them. )

DawnOfTheDoggers

Have you RTFT? Or at least the OP's posts.

This is not about Father Christmas.

We've never done the Santa thing with DD. This means that we haven't created the lie for her, nor have we told her he doesn't exist. She's absolutely free to believe whatever she likes. This is the approach we take with all made-up stuff: santa, tooth fairy, easter bunny, fairies, zombies etc.

So far she's really not that bothered about Santa (despite getting it hammered into her by school/television/relatives/random strangers from August to December every fucking year). She's a very content, bright and imaginative 5 year old.

DS worked out Father Christmas was bollocks when he was six. Absolutely clear logic on it all. We have to be very direct with him because he, too, is autistic and as the world is confusing, he needs to have complete faith in our being honest with him if he asks direct questions.

But... we coached him carefully on how he must not ever let slip to other children, because it could ruin their pleasure, and would make their parents angry. And unlike a neuro-typical child, I suspect, he is utterly reliable once he understands something. So he's never breathed a word.

Unsupported autism must have been grim for your MIL and as someone who has had to fight tooth and nail to get her son the support necessary to engage appropriately and feel secure and accepted, my heart goes out to her. She needed a whole range of support that was just never on offer at all, and she has, it sounds like, built a life despite those challenges, which is massively to her credit. But, and it's a huge but, she sounds incapable of meeting your child's needs, and worse, incapable of refraining from using your child to meet her own needs. That's bad. Very, very bad. And her autism is neither here nor there when assessing the emotional and social needs of a three year old. Plenty of autistic women make brilliant mothers and would no more dump their emotional needs on the lap of a three year old child than fly - I have no idea whether this behaviour is autism-related or just who she is. But at core, it doesn't actually matter, because she's not the child in this equation.

Father Christmas is annoying and boundary stamping and you have every right to mind. It was out of line. But I can imagine quite a few women doing this, without it meaning they shouldn't be trusted with the care of a child. However... telling people your child is hers, calling a three year old her daughter so that child repeats it to her mother, and stalking you so she can spend time with your child... she's using a toddler to meet her emotional needs. That may well be because it's safe, and love that can be trusted, and again, my heart breaks for her. But what about the emotional wellbeing of your child? This is not at all healthy, OP.

I wouldn't dream of going no contact over a childcare relationship this disturbing. I sure as hell would be ending that childcare arrangement and establishing set visits with GM that involved parental supervision. Apart from anything else, what happens when your child becomes annoyed by her grandmother's obsession and starts to push her away? How can this end well if the responsibility for setting boundaries is on a three year old child?

Thank you everyone, it's a relief to get some perspective on this! fusion thanks for your understanding and supportive words - and everyone else too, I know that I am venting rather here, so it all sounds a lot more dramatic than I actually am in real life... (but if you can't vent on AIBU then where can you? :) )

Dawn I did say I feel like going NC, not that I'm "petulantly" threatening to (and believe me I do know what it involves, I don't mean it lightly at all).

I'm falling asleep so will get to bed now, but will check back in to the thread tomorrow. Thanks again!

Do you want a cookie or something for that, FuckSanta? It isn't relevant to the situation. Op has brought up her dd as a Santa believer and the MIL has undermined that.

Tbh OP I think this thread has shown there are other issues with MIL. This Santa thing is just the straw breaking the camels back. Now, it can't have been easy for her growing up unsupported with asd. But you need to lay down firm and clear boundary rules, as she likely will not perceive them unless you're explicit about it.

sleeponeday thanks, that is very helpful indeed, and I really appreciate you taking the time to post. I agree that it is horrendous that she has lived with undiagnosed ASD all her life in a time when no-one really understood her. Trying not to drip feed, but she was also sent away to boarding school at an early age too, which I imagine must have been absolute torture for a non-NT child. I agree completely though that I think she is using DD to meet her own needs, and that it's particularly bad for DD at this stage in her life when she is learning to understand the social world. (To clarify - it sounded from what DD said that she isn't telling other people that DD is her daughter, but she is saying to DD that DD is her daughter or like her daughter. Slightly less worrying but still worrying - can't imagine my own mum doing that!)

To be fair we have not seen MIL behave quite like this to this extent before, as normally when she's seen DD it's been with one of us there - it's only in the last couple of months she's been looking after DD while we have been working (often working from home). But I have been quite worried about DD in the last couple of weeks, and I think you have all confirmed my sense that this arrangement isn't working in a healthy way and we need to make other plans ASAP.

So this thread has been really helpful, and thank you all again for the really helpful and insightful posts! You're also right that it isn't really about the FC thing so much as the straw, camel's back etc. - I'm really glad that so many people could see that and write supportive and useful things.

Now definitely off to bed :)

I am glad the thread has been of use. I thought sleeponeday's post really said it all.

In terms of this though:

"But she is saying to DD that DD is her daughter or like her daughter. Slightly less worrying but still worrying"

In the gentlest of ways, I don't think I can agree it's less worrying. It's very much crossing a line in a way that doesn't respect your dd as a little individual at a time in her life when "mum" is VERY important and she is only going to be getting her head around kinship terms. It's more worrying in some ways if there's a blurring of boundaries in their relationship... my grandmother was a little bit like this with my cousin who she had to take care of in a similar situation (my aunt lost her husband when pregnant with him) and she was very unboundaried - used to pick him up when he was sleeping and very much had this idea that she was his primary carer etc etc.. and it did lead to a lot of difficulties and sadness later on.

I hope you can get it sorted asap. It's so hard when you're to the wall and you need childcare from family and it's not working out, I've been there .

Sounds like the Father Christmas comment isn't the main issue, just the last straw! That wouldn't bother me as much as her other behaviour. ASD can lead to poor boundaries but I think there's more going on here. If she doesn't believe in "lying" about Father Christmas, how does she justify saying she's your daughter's mother?! She sounds very possessive of your daughter, the waiting outside your house watching for the lights to take her as soon as possible would drive me crazy! I would do everything you can to change your childcare arrangements. Could you or your DH look into flexible working? I understand it's not easy but the current arrangement isn't healthy for your DD or you. You need to be able to set and enforce strong boundaries with your MIL, which you can't do if you're dependent on her.

Are you sure about what she's saying? If it comes from your 3 year old it's possible it's not the whole story.

DD was very interested at about that age in familial relationships. So whose daughter was her mother, grandmother etc. My
Mum would often say that she was great-grandma's daughter, that I was her daughter and DD was my daughter, for example. A 3 year old could easily miss a step.

Some of the poor boundary issues could just be because nobody has ever directly told the MIL that something is not okay or is socially inappropriate. For example, she might be hanging around outside in the morning because she loves your DD and is always excited to see her, but she knows it's not appropriate to call on someone's house until they're up, so she's arriving early and then waiting until you're up to actually knock on the door, thinking that this is OK and polite and not realising that hanging around outside beforehand seems weird and stalkery and that it's totally OTT to do it every morning.

I have several friends with ASD and most of the time if they do something that upsets people, it's just a misunderstanding or because they just don't realise how someone NT sees that action. For example, I once asked my ex-housemate if he'd like to try the new type of herbal tea I'd bought, and he then went on to drink practically all of the boxes of fancy tea and coffee in my cupboard thinking I'd offered to let him have it all. He was mortified when I explained that I didn't really intend for him to finish the lot off and I'd just been offering him a cup. Another time he asked at a party if he could feel my bump when I was pregnant because my baby was kicking, and I said yes but didn't think to explain "through my t-shirt", and he grabbed my jumper and shirt and lifted them right up over my bra in front of everyone and then plonked both his freezing cold hands on my bare stomach!

Before getting annoyed or weirded out by anything MIL does, try telling her directly but nicely that it's unacceptable behaviour and why it upsets you, and suggest an alternative behaviour. If she still does something unacceptable despite being asked not to a couple of times in a very clear, direct way, then she's being difficult rather than it being the ASD causing the issue.

Your child, your rules. If MIL did this unaware that you might mind, then it is just about tolerable; if she did it knowingly then she is a P in the A.

Not something I would have said to my GC without clearing it with parents first. YANBU - I would be furious.

I'm with MIL, I'm afraid. I totally don't get why so many mums parents here think pretending Father Christmas is real is either desirable or important for others to join in with. I've never met anyone in RL who takes it as seriously as MNetters seem to. My own kids knew from the outset that it was a fun tradition but not a real thing, and don't seem to have been scarred by this early candour. She sounds like a bit of a pain in other respects (though in fairness your star witness is a 3yo) but since she's helping you with free childcare you probably should just be grateful. I'm also with Doggers. Going NC is best reserved for extreme situations where one or more family members' mental or physical wellbeing is at stake, and a bit of a wild overreaction here (understatement).

What!!. No father Christmas. Now you tell me. . .
Zoe are you for real. Adults have been lying to children for centuries. It's all part of childhood wonder excitement and innocence, and the corruptness of this world. Children need to hold on to that wonder excitement and innocence for as long as they Possibly can.
Op your mil was bang out of order, but sadly. What's been said can't be unsaid, so the only you can do is say something along the lines of. Oh of course he's real, Granny's being very silly. You don't want to them to stop believing at 3. My goodness my nephew is 3, and it was only the Christmas just gone that he really understood about Father Christmas.