AIBU to ask if Lord Owen is right about TTIP?

[SpringingIntoAction]

Is former Labour Minister and SDP politician, Lord David Owen right to think that TTIP will be detrimental to the NHS?

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/06/brexit-is-necessary-to-protect-nhs-from-ttip-says-david-owen

"Conversely I have seen very little from the remain campaign when asked what the EU will look like in 10-15 years time."

Well if we had a crystal ball then this would all be a lot easier.

But I think what the EU looks like in 15 years' time will depend to some extent on whether we are in it or not.

Pan and helpful

Of course I don't know what the EU will look like in 10 to 15 years time. However we can project that staying in the EU will see a more stable economic situation over the next few years as we don't need to negotiate new trade deals and there will be less uncertainty.

If we stay in the EU we will have a say in how it looks rather than just looking in

The RMT union has advised it's members to vote Brexit to protect workers rights and break free from the pro-privatisation and anti-worker EU.

Good for them!

"However we can project that staying in the EU will see a more stable economic situation over the next few years"

In fairness that is a staggering assumption. The euro is dying on its arse, youth unemployment is above 20% in most Mediterranean countries, economic growth is flatlining in most member states and contracting in the rest and this is well before the UK decided to hold a referendum. For what it is worth I am still undecided on how I am going to vote but the certainty of opinion emanating from both camps is impressive!

1. The EU is not "pro-privatisation". Most member states have mixed economies with varying degrees of privatisation and public ownership. We have a national health service (for now, at least), but we privatised our railways. The French have an insurance-based health service (which is actually very good) but publicly owned railways. (Apart from the TGV? I'm not sure about that.) The EU recognises that each member state has its own unique economy, some are more pro-privatisation whereas others have a larger public sector, and there is no right or wrong answer. There is certainly no pro-privatisation agenda. This would go down like a lead balloon with many of the other member states who believe much more in public ownership of assets than we do.

1. The EU is not "anti-worker". As I explained in my long post above, much of our employment law comes from the EU. This is designed to ensure that all workers across the EU enjoy a minimum level of employment rights, so that companies can't make themselves more competitive by driving down their operating costs at the expense of their employees. Member states are free to go above and beyond the minimum requirements under EU law if they wish to, and many do. (For example, people in Scandinavian countries have better employment rights for parents than anywhere else in the world, because their national governments decided it was important to them.)

I prefer the RMT/SWP take on it.

One out, all out.

Applause and for buttered. Thanjs for taking so much time to explain. I shall have a closer read later.

Well you're entitled to prefer RMT's take on it if you like, but it doesn't make them right. I just think that making sweeping statements like "the EU are pro-privatisation and anti-worker" without bothering to actually back that up with any facts is unhelpful and detrimental to the debate.

You're welcome, MaidOfStars. If my post has been useful to anyone (on either side of the debate) then it was time well spent.

Helpful One of the key arguments for Remain (Bremain) and much touted as a major success of the EU is the gains made in workers' rights (time directives, rest periods, maternity pay etc). How do you reconcile that with the premise that we must Brexit to protect workers' rights? Which specific rights?

I'm also quietly lol'ing at the idea that RMT members don't have strong enough employment rights. Let's just take a minute to remember that this is a group of people who get paid a VERY nice salary and pension for doing what is essentially an unskilled job, because they regularly go and strike and hold London to ransom. The fact that they haven't realised that the public has largely lost any sympathy for them and that if they keep throwing their toys out of the pram they will eventually all be replaced by machines leads me to believe they're not actually all that bright.

MyHovercraft

Why are you turning this into a race issue? I don't recall Brexiteers mentioning it on this thread.

Or are you making a sweeping generalisation that the Out&Proud, LabourGO, Women for Britain, RMT, SWP and other pro-Brexit groups are all racists?

Helpful Which rights for workers would Brexit protect?

I've actually had time to read this thread properly today, after just popping in occasionally to talk about TTIP.

buttered, thank you so much for your long post.

Like several here, I'm undecided and want to hear arguments for both sides in order to educate myself and make the best decision - and for the country as a whole, not just for myself.

Pan, if you can flesh out the issues in your post today at 09:40:35, I'd find that helpful too.

I'm in roughly the same position as I was over ScotRef, in that I don't think either Westminster or Brussels is wonderful, but each may be the lesser of the two evils. Or may not. And both are subject to change, of course, so it's about the long term.

A study by the left wing think tank the Fabian Society revealed that after testing the message from both sides of the campaign they found that 'on issue after issue, the Leave groups had more compelling arguments'.

An initial 4 point lead for Remain became a 2 point leave for Leave after both sides of the story had been heard.

So if we leave the EU we won't have to sign up to TTIP, we will negotiate our own, favourable to us, trade deal with the states.

We will also be able to control our own borders (though presumably still abiding by UN laws regarding refugees etc?)

We will be able to negotiate our own, favourable to us, trading agreements with whoever we want, including the EU.

We will be able to be far more competitive internationally once freed from all the EU bureaucracy on workers rights, environmental standards, and product safety.

What have I missed?

Can you post or link to those "compelling arguments", please, HelpfulChap?

Can you post or link to those "compelling arguments", please,

We tested arguments being used by campaigners for Leave and Remain
to see how convincing people found them. On the majority of core
issues in the referendum contest (with the notable exception of risk and
uncertainty), Leave arguments were found to be more persuasive than
the arguments being deployed by Remain, with more people initially
telling us they would vote Remain than found Remain’s arguments ‘very’ or
‘somewhat’ convincing.
•  Immigration is the unavoidable issue of the referendum campaign,
withmore than half of voters selecting it as one of their top three
concerns when thinking about the referendum. While people are fairlysplit on whether free movement is good or bad, Leave’s messages about
immigration outperform Remain’s messages by asignificant margin.
•  The economy is thought to be anarea of strength for Remain, and
respondents instinctively felt that the EU is good for economic issues
like jobs, investment and prices. However, once they were exposed to
the fuller arguments being used by both campaigns, Leave once again
performs better.
•  Security and global influence is one of the most finely balanced areas of
debate in the referendum contest, and is also perceived to be one of the
most important. On the key argument about terrorism, the leave message
has an11-point lead.
•  57percent said leaving the EU would be better for ‘pride in Britain’, but
patriotic Remain arguments can help counter this advantage. When we
tested apatriotic Remain argument against apatriotic Leave argument
the Leave lead was reduced to just 4 points.
There are anumber of factors that mitigate this bad news for the
Remain camp.
•  Remain has the advantage of the status quo, which we know often
triumphs in referendums. When we asked for initial impressions on
whether leaving or staying would be ‘better’ for arange of core issues,
remain triumphed in amajority of them.
•  Remain are winning the argument about risk. 52percent agree
that leaving the EU would lead to years of uncertainty, compared to
27percent who think it would be straightforward.

From: www.fabians.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Argument-or-organisation_-The-battle-over-membership-of-the-European-Union.pdf (triggers download)

you haven't actually posted any of the arguments

Could you read the link? I can C&P but it is absolutely loads.

You've missed any indication that these are anything other than fantasies!

Indeed

"voting for the educated correct view."
Oh yuck ..... sounds like the Regressive Left. The People's Republic of Islington well represented here, I see.