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Rehabilitation (teenagers' murder conviction) *Harrowing subject*

269 replies

lougle · 05/04/2016 23:49

I started a post and lost it all. I'm struggling to marry my usual stance on rehabilitation (Christian concept of redemption, Grace, etc.) with the news reports of the two young girls who have just been convicted of Murder (I won't link to the news stories as they are horrific).

Given that these girls could be released from detention before they are 30 (starting sentence is 12 years), do you think that our justice system can rehabilitate these girls so they are safe to live in society? I'm not sure I do, which is so unlike me. I even manage to feel sorry for Hitler and have compassion for the boy he was before he turned into a murderous man.

I wonder if it's because the woman they murdered was vulnerable (alcoholism) and I know that my DD1 is going to be a vulnerable adult (SN brain condition)? Perhaps I am projecting my fears onto the situation. I just can't comprehend the nature of this murder and can't understand how these girls got to this point.

OP posts:
Lunar1 · 06/04/2016 09:25

I don't honestly think it matters if a murder can be rehabilitated or not. I think it's an unacceptable risk, one that the public should not be forced to take.

If someone can commit a cold blooded murder, there should be no opportunity for them to do it again.

Andrewofgg · 06/04/2016 09:43

Lunar1 To be clear: are you saying that all convicted murderers should get a whole-life tariff?

mumoseven · 06/04/2016 09:49

I'm wondering if the worst punishment is that their numbed, delayed (i want to say 'retarded' in the correct usage, not an insult)minds which felt no remorse at the time of the crime gradually come to life during therapy and rehabilitation and the full realisation of what they did lives with them forever after. Like switching a light on in a previously dark room. Just a thought.

Lunar1 · 06/04/2016 10:01

For cold blooded murder, yes I am. Why should my family or yours be put at risk on the chance that someone is rehabilitated?

Why should the victims family have to live with knowing the person who destroyed their world gets a second chance.

I don't think they should be tortured for eternity and I do think there needs to be big changes to the way prison works (and I have worked in some). But I don't think they should ever be free again.

JuxtapositionRecords · 06/04/2016 10:02

What a horrific crime. I truly can never comprehend what makes people do this. However I do believe some people are born evil - I don't know if it's a chemical imbalance in the brain, some kind of personality disorder or what. Plenty of people kill, rape, torture having grown up in perfectly "normal" lives. If you haven't watched it I recommend a film called 'we need to talk about Kevin'. I know it's fiction but it gives an interesting view point on how some children can just grow up to be 'bad' despite their upbringing.

However that doesn't take away from the fact that children who go through hell in their childhood are undoubtably going to become desensitised to certain things.

fastdaytears · 06/04/2016 10:17

Lunar what do you mean by cold blooded?

minifingerz · 06/04/2016 10:28

The genocides in Rwanda etc, and the behaviour of soldiers and civilians in the second world war shows that ordinary people can behave with unbelievable cruelty in certain conditions, and then go back to relatively normal life afterwards.

I don't believe in evil. I believe that social, psychological/biological factors come together to create great horror sometimes, and we must always be vigilant as a culture do prevent these things happening.

I hope these girls can be rehabilitated.

I'm saying this as a parent whose child has been diagnosed with a conduct disorder and a lack of empathy, possibly a personality disorder. She has two loving parents, has never been abused, but is mentally ill. We have had to fight long and hard for a diagnosis at a specialist unit, which has come years after she was first referred to CAMHS, where she was diagnosed only with depression. I look at my dd, and I suspect that had she been bought up in a chaotic family by parents who were abusive or cruel, and in a setting where bullying and cruelty are tolerated, she could have ended up like one of these girls. :-( And she wouldn't have had a mental health diagnosis - you only get one of those these days if you come from the sort of family who will fight to get you assessed and then help you access the right treatment.

minifingerz · 06/04/2016 10:46

Would add that I can absolutely see how girls this age can end up in care. The only reason our dd was able to continue at home was because of the help and support DH and I gave each other, and the love and care we had from our wider family. DD nearly broke us as a family. If she'd ended up in care she would have come into contact with other girls as dysfunctional as she was and who knows where she would have ended up and what she might have got involved in. And social services only became involved when I called them and begged them to help as as dd was putting herself at risk of abuse outside the home. I also phoned the NSPCC and asked them for help. DD had come to the attention of social services through us calling the police in response to her violent behaviour at home. I had begged for help as her behaviour was traumatising my younger children and making me ill, but until there was a risk of sexual exploitation they were uninterested. It all came to a head around the time there were many stories in the news about the sexual exploitation of girls in Leicester, where the police and social services were being criticised for a lack of action. I really felt that we only got help because they were trying to prove that they took sexual exploitation seriously. They'd been quite happy to stand back and do nothing while we feel apart as a family before that.

TheWeeBabySeamus1 · 06/04/2016 10:49

I read this story last night and my God was it awful. I found it hard to sleep after reading the details... a 5 hour beating. A devastating end to a life filled with sadness (I think that's what upset me the most, she suffered so much in life and then met the worst end imaginable) I can't even imagine the horror of that poor woman's last hours on earth. Terrifying. And made all the worst by the age of the girls.

As PPs have said, these girls home lives must have been awful, they were heavy drinkers already and for them to be out getting pissed on a regular basis there was obviously no one around who cared enough to intervene and lay down boundaries.

This wasn't normal teenage behaviour and the viciousness of the attack makes me think that they must be very disturbed. I hope they can be rehabilitated, but I'm not sure how you would go about it, or know if any remorse shown was genuine.

Hopefully one day the gravity of what they've done will hit them. In the mean time they need to be locked up for the safety of others.

Narp · 06/04/2016 11:11

minifingerz

Thankyou for sharing your story. How very very difficult this must be for you. And the lack of support is only too unsurprising.

ridingabike · 06/04/2016 11:23

The age of criminal responsibility is 10 - I presume there is a good reason for this

It's 12-14 in most other countries. And is going to be increased from 8 to 12 in Scotland.

8-10 is ludicrously young.

kesstrel · 06/04/2016 11:38

There has been a lot of research done now on children who exhibit what are called "callous and unemotional" traits. There's a suspicion that this set of traits is one that will later lead to a diagnosis of psychopathy. And evidence as well that it is extremely heritable. Which implies that one reason such children often come from appalling homes is that one of their parents/grandparents is likely to have an anti-social personality disorder. This makes untangling the effects of biology and upbringing rather difficult. But it does mean that we shouldn't automatically assume that it's always all down to upbringing.

"Children with conduct problems who also exhibit high levels of CU traits reflect a particularly high heritability rate of 0.81, as reflected in longitudinal research.[5]"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callous_and_unemotional_traits

alltouchedout · 06/04/2016 11:59

The age of criminal responsibility is 10 - I presume there is a good reason for this.

A quick Google tells me that the age varies around the world from 6 to 18. I'm sure each jurisdiction thinks there is a good reason for the age they have set. Who is right?

Baby P was mentioned above. If that poor little boy had survived his hellish childhood, what would his understanding of right and wrong, of normal, have been? Normal for him would have been appalling violence and cruelty. If he'd made it to 10 and killed someone, could it really, sensibly be said that he would have understood the total wrongness of such an action?

The really sad thing is that the intensive interventions very damaged children need dintt take place until they have already done awful things. Until they have victims of their own. I think if we're looking to lay blame, a good part of it has to be directed towards a system that lets this happen.

I don't think a child who commits a terrible crime should be shrugged at and left to go their own way until they reach adulthood and can be dealt with in the adult criminal justice system, of course. But I think we should be careful about judging them as if they were adults. You wouldn't think a 10 year old had the maturity and understanding to vote- how come they have the maturity and understanding to be deemed fully responsible for their actions in criminal terms?

AnchorDownDeepBreath · 06/04/2016 12:23

These threads are always fascinating, because everyone is so keen to explain it away - it must be a medical condition, it must be because their childhoods were horrible.

It's no secret that my childhood was horrendous, we were assaulted often, my mum was severely mentally ill. My younger sisters were eventually taken into care, my older sister was housed by social services at 15 because she kept physically fighting my mum. I got left, because I was always the one dearming everyone and hiding the knives, rather than being involved in the fights. We begged for social services to do something. Anything. They believed it was better to try and maintain the family status. That my mum might hurt herself if they took us all. At 15, she kicked me out at midnight, after punching me so hard she fractured my skull. I spent the night in a busstop. The council said I could go home or they'd put me in a Salvation Army. They did - and they gave me "Safety training" which involved avoiding the shelter at the hours that people on methadone were at their worst, and barricading the door before I slept.

I'm alright. I've never committed any crimes. I know a lot of similar people, and they haven't either - there's a marked difference between those of us who grew up surrounded by violence and knew it was wrong, and those who just accepted the worldview. The latter tend to be in and out of prison or half-way houses.

Obviously nobody should have a childhood like mine, and some people go through even worse, but it doesn't follow that we'll all become murderers or have no concept of right or wrong. We absolutely should get rid of the current system, it's absolutely not fit for purpose, but we'd still have murderers and cold-blooded killers, and the call would still need to be made on what to do with them.

The Slenderman killings in the US are the same - two 12 year old girls. They had a good upbringing. Probably shouldn't have known about Slenderman at 12, but no indication of abuse or violence or unhappiness.

I don't think you can rehabilitate people without knowing what has made them the way they are. You take the chance to release them again and hope either that they have rehabilitated or that they hated prison enough that they will obey societies rules. If you're wrong, though, it's the rest of society that pays - the family and community of the next victim. I wonder how often that doesn't pay off. But the alternative - to kill them or lock them up for life - seems inhumane.

Natsku · 06/04/2016 12:24

Age of criminal responsibility is 15 in my country. Those girls should be in a secure institution for sure, but not prison. Intensive mental health care is what they need and constant supervision. And that should have come long before it came to murder, the LA 'looking after' them has absolutely failed them.

cleaty · 06/04/2016 12:29

The age of criminal responsibility is 8 in Scotland.

PhilPhilConnors · 06/04/2016 12:38

I agree with minifingerz take on this.
The whole thing is horrific.

I saw an article this morning where a social worker said that the older girl was the most volatile girl she'd ever worked with. How on earth was more not done? The safety net for deprived/neglected/abused children has so many holes it's not fit for purpose.
CAMHS turn away children from their services until the they are at a point where their lives are at risk (we were told that they couldn't help our son until he was self harming or attempting suicide).

The poor woman killed, another victim of a system that's not working.

BillSykesDog · 06/04/2016 12:46

The woman who was murdered was the product of a childhood in care too.

I agree that there is something badly wrong on the care system. It's the same as in Rotherham where girl's were going missing for days and being bought back in taxis or by men who were prostituting them.

Normally it's hidden because the victims are the children in care themselves who are largely invisible and have no voice. Somebody up thread mentioned that there is very little that staff in care homes can do. They have no power, they can't stop them leaving; they can't stop them doing harmful things. Personally I'd like to see secure units used much more frequently than they are now.

FATEdestiny · 06/04/2016 12:52

Would it be possible for someone to link to the details of this case?

fastdaytears · 06/04/2016 13:51

BillSykes also Leicester, Oxford...

whois · 06/04/2016 14:16

To anyone shouting out for 'life to mean life' I storngly urge you to watch this documentary about life without parole in the US.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b041yb2b

If you are sentenced to life without parole, what is the point of rehabilitation? Why bother if there is nothing you can do to redeem yourself and nothing you can do to give back to society? You are just taking the cowards way out and in wanting the equivalent of the death penalty but you just don't want to say that.

People commit horrible evil acts, but to think that people can't be rehabilitated is a horrible thought. Not everyone can, but most people can and do. Especially in a well funded and well run program with good continuity and spanning a long time horizon.

PrettyBrightFireflies · 06/04/2016 14:30

I saw an article this morning where a social worker said that the older girl was the most volatile girl she'd ever worked with. How on earth was more not done?

Do what though?

Damaged teens often won't engage with support services - do you force them to do so, in case they go on to offend?

Andrewofgg · 06/04/2016 14:37

And the social worker should not have been discussing her - not even anonymously.

PolterGoose · 06/04/2016 14:42

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