Rehabilitation (teenagers' murder conviction) *Harrowing subject*

[lougle]

I started a post and lost it all. I'm struggling to marry my usual stance on rehabilitation (Christian concept of redemption, Grace, etc.) with the news reports of the two young girls who have just been convicted of Murder (I won't link to the news stories as they are horrific).

Given that these girls could be released from detention before they are 30 (starting sentence is 12 years), do you think that our justice system can rehabilitate these girls so they are safe to live in society? I'm not sure I do, which is so unlike me. I even manage to feel sorry for Hitler and have compassion for the boy he was before he turned into a murderous man.

I wonder if it's because the woman they murdered was vulnerable (alcoholism) and I know that my DD1 is going to be a vulnerable adult (SN brain condition)? Perhaps I am projecting my fears onto the situation. I just can't comprehend the nature of this murder and can't understand how these girls got to this point.

Oh yes Mumontherun I'm sure your DD just couldn't possibly had done such a thing alone, it must have been all the big bad other girls fault .

Newsflash, if someone, at 13-15, which is more than old enough to know better, has the capacity to target and abuse someone with special needs in a pair, they have the capability of doing it alone.

Get real, stop making excuses for her. I wouldn't be so quick to believe she had changed either. What a disgusting person.

A lot of people seem to feel that the fact that the criminals here are children makes them MORE culpable than if they were adults. The idea of executing 12-year-olds, or giving them a life sentence is horrific.

At the same time, I don't trust the justice system to be able to rehabilitate such seriously damaged children. Surely in order to become decent people they would need to have the best possible therapy and the unconditional love of a very wise and patient carer. This is never going to happen. Of course there is no guarantee that even the best therapy in the world would work, and they might still be monsters 12 years from now.

AdrianaLima there is a recognition within the world of criminal psychology that in cases of joint enterprise, there is usually a dominant personality. While it's exceptionally rare for a completely morally grounded person to be coerced into criminal activity, it's not uncommon for one partner who is weak minded or susceptible to dependency or cowardice to be persuaded to become a willing partner, with the likelihood being that if they had never come under the dominant person's influence, they would never have committed an offence or necessarily considered doing so.

The most extreme example of that phenomenon is Myra Hindley. She was completely unremarkable before she met Ian Brady and psychologists have calculated that the odds of her becoming a murderer without his influence were extremely slim.

I should hasten to add, I'm not for one moment suggesting Mumontherun's daughter is going to grow up to become the next Hindley! In addition, many teenagers are nowhere near being "completely morally grounded" at the age of 13-15, and can be very easily led - peer pressure is a powerful thing. Look how many get sucked into bullying their peers as part of a group, only to bitterly regret it as they mature and develop empathy.

Some people could possibly be rehabilitated yes in theory some could but its not certain so should society burden the risk to give offenders of this type the chance of a *normal' life on their release?
For me it's a no- I don't think morally offenders like this should be given the chance of a normal life following release Mary Bell, and Hope Rippey should have not been able to go on to have children. I especially have issues with Mary Bell and the killers of James Bulger being given new identities therefore putting the public at even more risk as we don't have the opportunity to avoid these people.

Something must have gone horribly wrong with their childhoods to make 13- and 14-year-olds capable of such deranged cruelty.

herecomethepotatoes Would you seriously have wanted to see the ten-year-olds who killed Jamie Bulger sentenced to death and executed?

Wishfulmakeupping And at what age should Mary Bell have been forcibly sterilised?

I would throw away the key as well. Prison should be about punishment (and in some cases rehabilitation - not for murderers though), but length of sentence should also be about protecting the public, giving 'peace of mind' to the victim's families and sending a strong message to those who would offend.

I know this is going to sound very wet but there are references in the coverage of this crime to MH issues on the part of at least one of the girls, suicide attempts, prescription and other drug abuse and alcohol abuse that make me wonder where are the services that should have been available to address these problems. Just what exactly does 'in the care of the LA' boil down to? Blueemerald, I agree with you.

I am also struck by the fact that teens regularly gathered in the victim's home to drink and that she bought alcohol and cigarettes for them. This seems to have been general knowledge. I am mystified as to how society turns a blind eye to the extent of alcohol abuse by minors. By definition, young teens and tweens off drinking cider or whatever are abusing alcohol. Nothing good or positive can come of the culture where that is shrugged at. It bespeaks a society where parents simply do not parent at all.

I think that the two girls may yet come to feel remorse. They strike me as having extremely stunted emotional development. Whether they can be rehabilitated depends on how seriously whatever prison they are sent to can address the enormous shortcomings of their early environment.

I agree entirely mathanxiety

It's an appalling case all round

kinkytoes Are you another one who says that no murderer can ever be rehabilitated?

Christopher Craig (as in Bentley) served eight years, was released, and died in his sixties having made a go of his life. It happens.

As for "sending a strong message to those who would offend" - do you seriously think two girls or boys in similar wretched circumstances will say to themselves Remember those two girls in Hartlepool? We'd better not!

I agree Andrew

These are extremely disturbed children living very disordered lives - lives that bear no comparison to us know

Sorry - lives that bear no comparison to what most of us know. But there are hundreds of such children out there.

Was going to say exactly the same as Math - what the fuck does 'in care' mean in this context. Nobody seemed to be caring for them or in fact gave a shit about what they were doing. NB that does not absolve them of responsibility for the crime.

Perhaps they could be but how does anyone really know if or when that has been achieved? I don't believe it's worth the risk. I also believe that the victims are more important than the perpetrators and that victims seem to largely be forgotten in many cases. I take the point about deterrent though!

I work for the prison service in a rehabilitative role laguna, and many of the people I work with have PD's. In order to work on their offending-related rehabilitation, they go into treatment for their PD, which doesn't cure it but helps them to manage it and be better equipped to cope with our treatment. Treatment for PDs where I work takes around 7 years, they then come to my team for a further 2ish, before progressing on to other establishments to complete any lower intesity work they need to.

It's absolutely not a slow process and takes a lot of hard work and dedication from the prisoner to achieve positive change.

kinkytoes Prisoners are subject to psychological evaluation so very in-depth assessments (some take weeks) will tell the psychologist whether the prisoners levels of risk in various areas have reduced, these assessments are then factored into treatment plans etc.

I find it very concerning that they have still shown no remorse, according to police/court reports.

I think there are so many issues here with the way these girls have been raised, it's a million miles away for most of us.

I don't know what the answer is but the possibility of them walking free in 12 years is quite horrifying.

cotton 12 years is the absolute minimum - If they don't work to reduce their risk by engaging in treatment and offending behaviour programmes, they will be unable to progress and won't be released. I work with men who had quite short sentences initially and are now 10+ years over tariff (end of sentence). They are still deemed high risk so are staying put.

I'm another one in the throw away the key camp.

Children in care are usually in foster care, or less commonly in a children's home staffed by largely unqualified and low paid staff. A friend is a foster carer and I have been stunned at the high level of need of teenagers in her care, she is expected to manage, without any real help. These are children who need IMO specialist care from qualified staff.
But it is all about short termism. Whatever is cheapest, rather than what is best for the long term.

The victim role could easily have featured either of those girls, given their lifestyle, given the fact that nobody seemed bothered by the fact that they repeatedly went missing -- or certainly nobody seemed to be doing anything about it, and nobody was out looking for them the night they committed murder. They are barely literate, judging from their posts on various sites. They could be raped, beaten, trafficked, even killed. Most likely they would go on to lead chaotic, disordered, unstable lives, abused in relationships, abusers in relationships, addicts, violent, unhappy, and probably not living to a ripe old age. They would most likely end up living a life similar to that of their victim.

Agree with Math.
There seems to be so much apathy - almost like a turn the other cheek.

Not RTFT or seen these stories, sorry.

But I have worked with a convicted murderer. He'd done approx 10 years, sentenced in his teens, and had been out a few years by the time he joined us.
He was fine. Had acquired a good range of qualifications, was married with children during his time with us etc. (Most staff obviously didn't know this, afaik. I think only myself, his line manager, and the CEO knew.)

Can't comment on the case in question, but my experience is that it absolutely is possible.

I was also really troubled by this last night and read everything I could find. Had no idea about it until yesterday though- was there much coverage?

I know the girls were looked after children (as above, using that term quite loosely as not a whole lot of looking after evident) but one set of parents didn't even come to the sentencing. Even if your kid was in care you'd turn up in court wouldn't you?

The dynamic between them was obviously quite complicated and they'd known each other since they were tiny.