AIBU to ask you to STOP

[Dawndonnaagain]

using the term 'autistics'. Four fucking times this weekend on different threads. You mean person with autism, people with autism, child with autism. Autistics is not shorthand for any of those. Pack it in.

I often see articles where people say, for example, blondes live longer. Or Scottish people swear more or whatever. It's a collective word for people that have something in common

That's very true. But how would you feel if you saw an article saying, "the blacks live longer", or "the gays swear more"?

I don't really have a view on right or wrong on this particular useage, as I've already said. But it's just not the case that certain groups are not marginalised to the point that "the X" can't carry very different, and far more negative, connotations.

Autism is hideously stigmatised. It just is. And language choices can't be isolated from that fact.

Flumpet I made the same mistake when first posting - it isn't the use of 'autistic' that is being objected to.

I do know what you mean OP. It is disparaging and belittling about someone else (NT) describing a group of people as "the autistics". How a person who is autistic chooses to describe themselves is of course totally up to them.

Agree with caprini about it being a fuckwit-filter. The fucking arsehole fuckwit self-proclaimed fucking ASD "expert" at my ds's school refers to "our children" every time I ever speak to her. It's always something like "our children need routine", or "our children benefit from visual aids". I now play mental bingo about how many times in every meeting or conversation she'll say it. I fucking hate her. Sorry, slight derail there

Ok thanks for clarifying.

I don't agree with the examples that have been given as being offensive.

No-one is saying "the autistics" so this blacks" or "the gays" or "the Jews". Othering, and indicative of distaste. is an inaccurate comparison.

They are all fine used to describe a group:

Blacks have been marginalised throughout history
Gays should be allowed to marry
Jews were persecuted in the war

Where is the offence?

My DD'S gym teacher said to me at parents evening: " God, how do you entertain THEM at the weekend"

Slithy that's a good point. In all honesty, I would always say "black people/gay people/Jewish people". But where that falls down is that I would say simply, "women". So I concede that you're right, and the examples I gave are skewed. Not sure how I managed to add a "the" - I went and reread on the assumption you were wrong, and you are in fact wholly correct.

As to the core point... I suspect it comes down to Caprinhaha's point, which is that people referring to "autistics" tend to be speaking with distaste. But not always, and some are themselves autistic.

It's hard, because this is really about attitudes underlying terminology. Sometimes it will be unpleasant, and at other times neutral. (And in the example cited below, there's nothing wrong that I can see, no.)

Blacks have been marginalised throughout history
Gays should be allowed to marry

Not fine. Not in the least. A nice progressive-sounding end to the sentence doesn't eliminate the beginning at all.

However, I am having a nice Sunday and if you've got this far in life insisting that is acceptable usage, you won't be changing your mind.

So I'll be placing you on my ignore list. Have a nice week.

Is the problem specific to the use of 'the' then?

If we move away from the use of autistics and into slithy's examples it seems to be the case. The geriatrics, or The women, or The Muslims it appears that use of The over-emphasises and marks out a special group as other and not the same as us.

Without 'the' we could be part of that group or see them as just having a shared characteristic.

With English we are doing this all the time to denote whether a group is part or separate from us. So in the UK we would talk about The Royal Family, because we are not a member, taking to an American we might say Our Royal Family because we share the characteristic of being from the UK.

This may be why phrases such as The Autistic Community or The Jewish Community also makes we wince a bit. People who share a specific similarity don't all live together in a specific place doing the same things.

Actually Bialy makes the point that Our can be problematic as well, it can be seen patronising in a particularly sort of controlling way. I suppose in the same way as a group of men referring to Our Women would sound. It is othering still.

Black, gay and autistic are adjectives.
Jew is a noun.

Dawn I got what you meant on page 1 :)
I was going to write a convoluted post about how I refer to DD and myself, but Blu has summed it up. Adjectives and nouns.
I've never heard the 'autistics' collective word used but it is cringey. Aspies seems OK. When Dawn and I have a cup of tea this year on the beach, we'll be a pair of Aspies. :)

Blu sorry to be pedantic, but Black, Gay and Autistic can be either adjective or noun.

...according to the OED

I understand the people first / identity first issue with regard to how it relates to autism much better now for having read this thread, so thank you to those who have discussed that point.

I would have no problem saying "an autistic person" or "autistic people" rather than "person/people with autism" but I would still feel uncomfortable referring to "an autistic/autistics". If an autistic person specifically asked me to use that terminology about themselves I would respect that, but I don't think it would ever become my default descriptor because, like Caprinihahahaha and others, I've only ever come across that usage in general speech being used by those who are implying negativity about autism, and so to me it does have that feel of "othering" about it.

but Giddy

Aspies isn't ok, because someone once posted they don't like it, therefore no-one else on MN should use it.

She was told to get lost

Funny that.

But i guess its ok for DawnDonna to tell us we can't use autistics because she doesn't like it?

This is a really interesting discussion. Language is difficult, especially when different people find different things offensive. But the key is surely to just not use a term about someone if they tell you that it has offended them?

I actually thought the correct collective noun was 'autists' - I've never heard 'autistics', it sounds like terrible English to me. Is 'autists' also offensive or does that seem ok? As in, a group of autists, a group of asthmatics and a group of anoretics (deliberately picked 3 different types of condition with various levels of stigma attached) If 'autists' seems okay then I would suggest that 'autistics' only sounds offensive because it's wrong and therefore jars on the ears. But if 'autists' is also offensive then that's not the case, clearly.

Dawn - one thing I'm interested in is that I think, upthread, you referred to yourself as an aspie . Yet you find an autistic unacceptable. What if someone has autism (is autistic?) but does not have aspergers? Is an autistic not then exactly the same descriptor as an aspie ? Or is it more that it's a way you refer to yourself but would not like to be referred to by other people? Sorry if that's a bit garbled, hopefully it makes sense!

But if I choose to use, it's OK. I'd never use the n word. People may use it about themselves and I don't have an opinion on that.

manic for some reason 'an Aspie' feels warm to me. 'An Autistic' feels cold and disparaging. Can't explain why unless it's a cultural reaction to a soft ee ending versus an 'ic' harsh ending. It's an implied tone too.

if you google the word "autistics" it does crop up quite a bit.

I do think its more american term that is just starting to find its way over here. As i'm in contact with a lot of American Autism page owners via the FB community, i do use it as its become part of my vocabulary in discussions.

November 1st is even called "Autistics Speaking Day"

I think the trouble with Autist is it's become a term to describe certain types of exceptional or obsessive online gamers. It has been used in the past to describe musicians and artists with a specific type of exceptional skill.

So although it has both positive and negatives connotations it does focus too much on the false perceptions around autism.

Agree with all the other posters saying it needs to be talked about. I have many people tell me they "autistic" too. Doesn't mean it's the right terminology but I don't think a lot people generally have enough awareness to get to that point?

this page uses it a lot

www.facebook.com/HeartForAutism/?fref=nf