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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

... to be appalled at the creeping erosion of freedom of speech rights?

126 replies

Cel982 · 25/03/2016 15:18

This knobhead was arrested yesterday for incitement to racial hatred:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-35888748

Now, to be clear, I think he's a twat. I don't agree with what he posted, and was glad to see him being roundly mocked on Twitter and elsewhere.

But the idea that the police can turn up at your door just for saying something which was not by any interpretation harassment, or threatening, or even specifically targeted at a particular individual, is terrifying to me. Their bar for what is likely to incite racial hatred seems set incredibly low. For a start, the Daily Mail publishes articles saying this kind of thing most days of the week, and I don't see any of their 'journalists' being hauled before the courts (though I think Katie Hopkins did get a visit from the police in her pre-DM days, over that really nasty piece on refugees).

This isn't the first episode of this kind, and I think in the past several of them have been thrown out of court, but they should never get there in the first place. I'm not sure whether the problem is in the legislation itself, or in the police force's interpretation of it, but something needs to change. This sort of carry on has no place in a liberal democracy.

OP posts:
Toadinthehole · 28/03/2016 02:10

Also is it necessary to arrest someone before they're charged?

If all the evidence the police were going to rely on was on Twitter, why didn't they just charge him and serve a summons?

Arresting him and turning over his flat is at best a poor use of resources and at worst Orwellian.

WeMustSurelyBeLearning · 28/03/2016 02:51

"However, if we're both adults about this, we both know that in all likelihood he approached a woman, probably darker skinned than he is, and probably wearing a hijab and demanded an explanation regarding an act of terrorism. He probably came across as intimidating and threatening. Oh, and the bit of assault and battery that one can be arrested for, demanding answers in a menacing tone, with intent to intimidate is the 'assault' part of that."

Apparently, according him she was a white british Muslim woman wearing a hijab. Racist? No. That's if she even exists seeing as no woman has made a complaint about this man. The sole "evidence" of this encounter came from his tweets. Brilliant police work there.

AgainstTheGlock · 28/03/2016 04:19

Op - YANBU.

I remember learning at school some 30 years ago that it was our right to stand on a soapbox and chatter away on any topic we like from hamster husbandry to criticising the government.

If you were being a twat the public would take care of you.

For me the REAL rot set in when an octogenarian was manhandled out of the Labour Party conference for heckling.

sportinguista · 28/03/2016 08:14

It seems to me a police caution would have been sufficient in this case unless they suspected him of far right organisation involvement and being involved in crimes linked to that. Stupid? Yes he was that in what he said, both to the woman directly and on Twitter, but I have seen far worse on some unregulated forums on the net. I don't like it but in the end the Internet is not regulated by individual country's laws especially if the site in question is on a server abroad. I was also deeply offended by the pro-Isis tweets about Brussels but as I understand there are no arrests over these and they contained as much if not more hate speech. Also there was the Glasgow imam praising a killer etc. Has he been arrested yet?

I don't think there would be anything to be gained from asking a complete stranger about the issue in an aggressive manner. Discussing the issue with a friend/colleague of that faith is acceptable but probably not going to be any more conclusive. I think many Muslims here are baffled by what is going on too or are wary of drawing false conclusions.

AuntieStella · 28/03/2016 08:41

"Also is it necessary to arrest someone before they're charged?"

Yes, arrest first (when there is reasonable suspicion than an offence has been committed and this person was involved) and then they can be interviewed and investigations continue until there is a reasonable case against them. Then they can be bailed or remanded until a Court can deal with them.

Charging someone who has not had the opportunity to put their version of events would be a bit of a lurch towards a police state, as it would remove the role of the DPP. And it might tie up a lot of Court time with cases that should never have been brought.

Now, a I know the police get it wrong from time to time. But I think the separation of the arrest and the charging procedures does offer safeguards.

AppleSetsSail · 28/03/2016 08:46

I find it astonishing that someone can be arrested for 'racism', yes. People should be allowed to express whatever views they have, including racist ones. Menacing, threatening speech is harassment regardless of its content and perpetrators should be held to account.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 28/03/2016 09:00

It would be wonderful to be able to educate the racists who are spouting hate speech and threats against Muslims everywhere on social media. Not sure it's possible though.

Obviously arresting them won't change their minds or mean they are less of a threat.

But I am torn because it would be nice for Muslims/any of their targets not to have to read that bile and go around living in fear and feeling like everyone is hostile.

Surely causing people to live in fear is a crime?

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 28/03/2016 09:01

Ideally the media/government would stop demonising Muslims to help their political agenda though.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 28/03/2016 09:06

I mean the recent bombing was abhorrent and should have been all over the media as it was. But there are bombings like that affecting women and children all the time, and we hardly hear of them. Yet suddenly it's a huge news story. Maybe things have got better, but I am assuming they are pushing their war agenda or its to do with Brexit. It's all very disturbing, the whole climate.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 28/03/2016 09:08

Focus was on this being an attack on Christians. ...and last I heard all but 3 of the victims were Muslim. It's all very skewed

AppleSetsSail · 28/03/2016 09:13

Focus was on this being an attack on Christians. ...and last I heard all but 3 of the victims were Muslim. It's all very skewed

If you're speaking of the Brussels attacks, I think this was more realistically an attack on Westerners. And I agree with your posts generally, they'll be used to push a pro-war/pro-security agenda. The complete shut-down of Brussels in the aftermath of the attacks was a pro-government pageant.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 28/03/2016 09:28

No I'm talking about the Lahore bombing suddenly becoming front page news when similar attacks happen all the time and we hardly hear..also it being painted as an attack on Christians.

AppleSetsSail · 28/03/2016 09:29

Are you referring to the one in the park where 55 died? Pretty sad.

AppleSetsSail · 28/03/2016 09:32

I see it's 69.

It's big news in France.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 28/03/2016 09:35

Yes it's very sad and I agree it is right it is front page news.

But such attacks never have been til now

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 28/03/2016 09:37

Certainly not in UK. And I'm talking attacks on schools outwith Europe and USA...no such huge coverage previously. So I question the motives of the media here.

CheeseAndOnionWalkers · 28/03/2016 10:00

While the guy is a disgusting racist, I'm not sure that arresting him achieves anything. There must be s better solution - maybe volunteer work with Muslims so he can learn that they are just people too? Get to
know the voctim so he realises she's an individual and not the representatives of every Muslim in the world?

I've read about several cases in America where independent bakeries refuse to make wedding cakes for gay couples and end up having to pay damages in court. I think that those judgements are right and it's good that the system "interferes "

AppleSetsSail · 28/03/2016 10:08

I've read about several cases in America where independent bakeries refuse to make wedding cakes for gay couples and end up having to pay damages in court. I think that those judgements are right and it's good that the system "interferes "

Why anyone should be forced to make a cake for a wedding that violates their religious code is beyond the grasp of my wisdom. Surely they're entitled to free will? A far better course of action is those who find offense boycott the bakery.

LumelaMme · 28/03/2016 10:17

Also there was the Glasgow imam praising a killer etc. Has he been arrested yet?
It doesn't look like it. Don't hold your breath.

The people currently doing the most to demonise Muslims are ISIS and other Islamists. They kill more Muslims than they do non-Muslims, particularly Shias.

As regards the Lahore bomb, the Taliban faction which carried it out apparently said it was to target Christians: see here

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 28/03/2016 10:26

Obviously ISIS are doing the most to demonise Muslims but the way it's portrayed in media is obviously very important in shaping attitudes towards peaceful Muslims in the UK.

AppleSetsSail · 28/03/2016 10:33

The people currently doing the most to demonise Muslims are ISIS and other Islamists.

If you're looking for a facile explanation, that will surely do.

ISIS is obviously comprised of deranged lunatics, yes, but which sequence of events do you suppose has brought them to their current state of insanity?

Radicalrooster · 28/03/2016 10:39

Why don't you tell us? And before you say 'Because Western imperialism/Israel/Oil etc, remember the fact that in 1993, a decade before the invasion of Iraq, AQ planted a car-bomb under the WTC that was designed to kill around 30,000 American civilians (by dropping one of the twin towers on to the other).

The rise and growth of ISIS from the remnants of AQI is as much to so with the sectarian policies of the Al-Maliki Govt in Iraq post 2010 as anything else.

Radicalrooster · 28/03/2016 10:41

And I have to say, when a Muslim youth can stand on a British street, directly in front of police officers, holding a placard stating 'Behead those who insult the Prophet' and not n eyebrow is raised, then it makes the arrest of this twitter idiot not only incomprehensible, but an act redolent of cowardly double standards.

PrettyBrightFireflies · 28/03/2016 10:54

I find it astonishing that someone can be arrested for 'racism', yes. People should be allowed to express whatever views they have, including racist ones.

I was wading through the Equalities Act last night in relation to another thread and thought about this.

A person who stands in the street and makes racist remarks not directed at an individual has not committed a crime.
If those remarks are directed at an individual then they may have committed a crime.

But if that same person does either of the same things in a pub or shop, and they are not challenged by the staff, then the business has committed a crime.

MistressDeeCee · 28/03/2016 10:58

I don't believe ISIS and the governments are actually at odds with each other. Its far too suspicious..this handling of terrorists (for want of a better term) with kid gloves. Well.. ISIS are certainly doing a good job of showing those who flee from their barbarism "see, we will make sure you are not even safe in the west"