... to be appalled at the creeping erosion of freedom of speech rights?

[Cel982]

This knobhead was arrested yesterday for incitement to racial hatred:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-35888748

Now, to be clear, I think he's a twat. I don't agree with what he posted, and was glad to see him being roundly mocked on Twitter and elsewhere.

But the idea that the police can turn up at your door just for saying something which was not by any interpretation harassment, or threatening, or even specifically targeted at a particular individual, is terrifying to me. Their bar for what is likely to incite racial hatred seems set incredibly low. For a start, the Daily Mail publishes articles saying this kind of thing most days of the week, and I don't see any of their 'journalists' being hauled before the courts (though I think Katie Hopkins did get a visit from the police in her pre-DM days, over that really nasty piece on refugees).

This isn't the first episode of this kind, and I think in the past several of them have been thrown out of court, but they should never get there in the first place. I'm not sure whether the problem is in the legislation itself, or in the police force's interpretation of it, but something needs to change. This sort of carry on has no place in a liberal democracy.

It is a tricky question: where does the right of free speech cross over into the right of people to live in peace without being harassed.

Ds (son of immigrant) has had teachers either openly saying in class that immigrants should be deported or (in other cases) weakly claiming that they can't do anything when his classmates state during lessons that people like him should be forced to go home to their own bloody country. So where does ds' right to a school environment conducive to learning end up? It seems to me that the school will clamp down on any other bullying, as long as it is not to do with origin.

(I wanted to go into school and kick up a stink but ds likes to fight his own battles)

Thought crime is a truly terrifying concept and we certainly don't want to go there.

But is the only alternative a situation where minority groups just have to put up with public abuse?

In the present instance, I suspect Birthgeek has it right though: if he had tweeted about a burglary and been fingered for it, nobody would have been worried about free speech at all.

I think the issue of free speech is an interesting one. For example for the last 30 years there was a movement broadly left. This has meant that particularly if you worked for the government you didn't express a view that was contrary to this (in general conversation .) The phrases "thought police" and "political correctness" often being used to describe this. More recently many people who have felt stiffed and made to feel as if they were so out of step with prevailing thought turned to Ukip, people were frightened to admit they we're voting for this. I would say that free speech has been gradually eroded over the last 30 years unless your view is the accepted one!

Ds (son of immigrant) has had teachers either openly saying in class that immigrants should be deported or (in other cases) weakly claiming that they can't do anything when his classmates state during lessons that people like him should be forced to go home to their own bloody country.

The school is out of order on both those counts. Teachers should not be sharing any political views in the classroom whether they're nice fluffy ones or the horrid contemptible ones you're describing. Your son has a right not to be bullied. I'm amazed the school let that go and you should complain loudly.

I do hope all women stand behind free speech rights. I want people to have the right to say that women are second to men, that white women with freckles like I am are a sub species, that the holocaust didn't happen, that women are the root of all evil, that gays will burn in hell. I think we have gone far too far in stopping people holding unusual or different views. If you get upset by someone's views then go off and have a cry or get some therapy but don't blame the person so made the comment.

What teachers though say in school is a very different matter as that is state education and most teachers would not be expressing views such as all immigrants (rather than illegal immigrants - a very different story) should be deported and if someone in class says a legal immigrant should be deported then the teacher shoudl step in and say I am delighted we all hold different views in this classroom, let us have a debate about who should be allowed to live in the UK.

He keeps back pedalling and changing his story - as he works in PR, you'd think his employers/colleagues might have some concerns about his lack of judgement.

Free speech does cut both ways. Extremist views are legislated against but clearly where the line is draw is subjective. What has appeared to happen is far left wing views are tolerated, right wing are not. Within the classroom views should not be expressed - behaviour should match professional standards. However like other public sector workers teachers will have varied views and they should feel entitled to express them is their private life

It is tricky, Eustace. When does delightful free speech turn into bullying?

In ds' school there are relatively few immigrants and very few black students, so you might end up with a situation where it is one student against a whole classroom who are all telling him that his parents are scroungers and he has no right to be there.

Should teachers also allow debates on whether the girl with the squint looks disgusting or the boy with learning difficulties shouldn't be allowed to go to an ordinary school? After all, it is so delightful that we all hold different views in this classroom? And the girl's parents can pay for therapy, can't they?

To me, it seems there is a short step from here back to the time when shops could have signs up saying "No blacks and Irish".

Ds (son of immigrant) has had teachers either openly saying in class that immigrants should be deported or (in other cases) weakly claiming that they can't do anything when his classmates state during lessons that people like him should be forced to go home to their own bloody country. So where does ds' right to a school environment conducive to learning end up? It seems to me that the school will clamp down on any other bullying, as long as it is not to do with origin.

That's appalling, cory. No teacher should allow that sort of nasty rhetoric to go unchallenged. Or spout it themselves - surely that breaches professional guidelines?! What an awful environment for your poor son. I don't think anyone should be arrested for it, though.

If you get upset by someone's views then go off and have a cry or get some therapy but don't blame the person so made the comment.

Well, I don't agree with this. It's perfectly fine, and often right, to get upset over the awful things people say. Freedom of speech does not mean that nobody can disagree with anyone else - they should disagree, and disagree loudly and forcefully. The offending person just shouldn't be locked up by the state for it.

It is very Orwellian and I am pretty sure the police never arrest the "Islam will rule the world/kill all infidel" placard holding Islamist friends of Anjem Choudhary.

I certainly don't think school bullies should be arrested either. Of course not. But there must be some kind of territory between arresting people and rejoicing at the delightfully varied views. Some way of stating loudly and clearly that certain ways of speaking to other people are unacceptable.

Incidentally, I don't think ds is suffering all that much: he can stand up for himself. But that is no guarantee that the next immigrant-descended, black or gay boy who comes along will be equally tough. Children do kill themselves over bullying.

Some way of stating loudly and clearly that certain ways of speaking to other people are unacceptable.

Isn't this exactly what happens to people who state they have these views? Look at the Twitter response to the twit in the story in the op and Nick griffin got creamed on question time.

I'm black, very vocally anti-racism (obviously) and where a lot of MNers don't "see" racism, I disagree. I also thought this guy was a colossal bell end and hypocrite

But based only on the "mealy mouthed reply" tweet, I don't think he should have been arrested. Roundly mocked, but not arrested. The towelhead comment was beyond the limit however. He does seem like a very bizarre man though, he tweeted the newspaper article to all the american election candidates and retweeted all the mocking posts.

What happens if the woman he abused was a white anglo saxon convert? Is it still classed as a "racist" incident?

I forgot to say in a school setting the head should absolutely nail the kids who are bullying your son. Freedom of speech does not mean the freedom to say whatever you want with no consequences.

PurpleDaisies Fri 25-Mar-16 16:43:27

"Some way of stating loudly and clearly that certain ways of speaking to other people are unacceptable.

Isn't this exactly what happens to people who state they have these views? Look at the Twitter response to the twit in the story in the op and Nick griffin got creamed on question time."

Which is cheering, Purple.

I was thinking more in a school context atm.

Cross posted with you cory.

I think it was more about his subsequent tweets and responses to people who were trolling him.

PurpleDaisies Fri 25-Mar-16 16:45:39

"I forgot to say in a school setting the head should absolutely nail the kids who are bullying your son. Freedom of speech does not mean the freedom to say whatever you want with no consequences."

It is tricky when it takes place within a history or sociology lesson, where debate is to be encouraged but can easily turn into a situation where one person is isolated and made to feel unwanted. Doesn't have to be about race either; discussions about e.g. the disabled can turn the same way.

I think in the context of a class discussion it's difficult. I'm a science teacher. I've done discussions on ethics or religion based issues and it can get heated if you aren't careful. The teacher has to insist everyone is respectful and polite. No one can use racist language. No one can make it personal. It is important to to be able to debate with people you disagree with.

I normally assign people to particular argument sides so they have to think more deeply about the issues and then you don't have loads of people hanging up on one person.

That sounds very good and thought-through, Purple; you sound like a brilliant teacher.

"But the idea that the police can turn up at your door just for saying something which was not by any interpretation harassment, or threatening, or even specifically targeted at a particular individual, is terrifying to me."
If you put yourself in the shoes of the woman he approached - well I would have felt harassed and threatened by him.

So a law was brought in to protect people living with disabilities and the government go for people with disabilities.

If you put yourself in the shoes of the woman he approached - well I would have felt harassed and threatened by him.

Yep. So he should be arrested for harassing the woman. Who may or may not exist, the incident may or may not have happened.

But he hasn't been arrested for that. He's been arrested for sending the tweet.

'racial hatred' interesting since 'muslim' isn't a race.
Fucking idiots piss me off using racist in something which is bigotry to a religion not a race, religion is a choice and by putting racist to religion devalues the meaning of racism, someones race is not a choice.

However hes a weirdo but Maybe he got arrested because if he is asking random people on the street about stuff which has nothing to do with them maybe he will act violent to someone because he thinks any random muslim person has something to do with it.