To wonder why the conservatives won't just tax people more ??

[stopfuckingshoutingatme]

Am I missing something here ?

Clearly there is a scarcity of money - and certain areas are rightly ring fenced .

But don't tell me that most working families can't afford an average of £50 a month - this would exclude people on low income , and for some families it £10 and for some £200 -

The UK is full of families and individuals with disposable income - a minor tax increase for 40% of the working population could raise £11bn

So why won't they do it ??? Baffles me - I would personally rather pay more tax and know that the vulnerable are cared for

"Labour are in disarry"

Really? Have you seen what the government are doing at the minute? Back tracking over major policies? Resignations, slandering each other in the press?

Corbyn has attracted lots of support, from the young especially, I think the next election will be closer than you think, mainly because the Tories have started to do things for the advantage of a select group and is very blatant. Think what you like about the next election.

Very right wing view there, I think you might be seeing it a bit tainted. We can say things all we like because we are a democracy, as much as the Tories are trying to undermine that.

"There are many economists who support the libertarian view and the view that high tax means less money available for the poor. "

Freidman and Hayek would agree, but then Friedman and Hayek don't suggest what we have right now which is capitalism for the poor and socialism for the rich.

Ok, on your benefits thing, what do the sick and disabled do?

Oh does it also mean that firms would have to actually pay living wages too?

What you really mean is you don't want to pay tax because your alright jack.

What the fuck have I just read? This thread has surprised me and if it's reflective of the population then we have another Tory government at the next election. The joys.

anyone who claims benefits, tax credits etc should be grateful that there are mugs like me who do high stress jobs and pay tens of thousands of pounds in tax every year so that they Can get hand outs

Yep. And then people like me. Who worked high stress jobs (management, dealing with public and dealing with the policies of higher management where I was expected to tell minimum wage workers that they couldn't have overtime/hours increases that they had been promised and was gleefully told that we would be sacking these people) - I was still needing benefits and tax credits while doing this job. And they sacked me for medical reasons. Don't ever think this can't happen to you. It could happen to any one of us at any time.

anyone who claims benefits, tax credits etc should be grateful that there are mugs like me who do high stress jobs

there are plenty of people in high stress jobs that need both academic and professional qualifications who are still in receipt of various benefits and/or tax credits.

And no, I'm not grateful to anyone like you who thinks that I'm somehow a lesser being because I am eligible to claim tax credits. I am also a tax payer. And I do a useful, very stressful job as well.

Don't worry oddsocks, people who have that view are very naive, sheilded from the world by the ego that says I did it all my self. Let them think that, no point arguing with that level of self aggrandising entitlement.

lurked I'd agree but i think you're missing a word - they think that they're shielded from the world but relationship breakdowns and job lossescan happen to anybody.

It reminds me of an ex-colleague in a way. She didn't know that I claimed anything (I had no reason to announce it!) but we had the same level of job except I was a single parent in my own flat and she lived with her parents so outgoings were different. We had a work night out and a homeless woman asked for a spare cigarette while the two of us were smoking. The colleague started yelling about "no, I pay for these with my wages and you should get a job too" then stormed off. I apologised to the woman, who looked mortified, gave her a couple of fags and went back to the colleague really pissed off. A couple of years later and I was homeless - the same colleague was so sympathetic about how people like me didn't deserve it. I just wish people could see that anybody can be in a shit situation. Knowing that one person "doesn't deserve it" because you know their situation (like the posters on this thread claiming ESA aren't the same as the scroungers in some peoples eyes) but the people that you don't know and are judging are likely just as deserving as those whose stories you do know. We are all human, we all deserve to be treated as such regardless of opportunities in life and where we currently are.

Sorry. I went on a bit there

I absolutely don't believe there are many people who think anyone who claims benefits, tax credits etc should be grateful that there are mugs like me who do high stress jobs this. The few who do think it, enjoy putting it on chat forums so they can wind people up.

I don't think it's as simple as just taxing people more, there are second and third order effects of any change and these aren't always obvious. I fully buy into the tax system so what pisses me off is people working cash in hand. I know that's a drop in the ocean but it symbolises that people think "it's ok, other people should pay tax".

As far as the amazons and googles, yes they should pay their fair share but we do need our policies to be friendly enough to attract these companies to the UK. I think their net effect is positive.
I'm no expert though and my maths is below average.

37 Eustace2016 so you be happy with a mother fleeing dv with her three children to survive on £192 a week for rent, bills, food , clothes etc etc . What about the disabled couple in their adapted property?

"we do need our policies to be friendly enough to attract these companies to the UK. I think their net effect is positive."

When you look at the level of tax they pay they are massively in deficit.

These compaines trade in Germany (30% Corporation tax), the USA and all the other countries with higher corporation tax than us, they have offices there etc. They don't pay their taxes there either and the French have managed to get a lot more money out.

I'd say that if they did decide to stop trading here, another firm would take there place, we should stop responding to: " I'll take my ball and go home if I don't get my way." tactics.

Oh and if it were that important to the Tories, why are half of them wanting brexit when most big firms and investors are saying to remain?

Mrsmorton agreed about Google et al and also cash in hand types. They need to pay the relevant tax.

Seven I agree with you too. Having said that, I hate the idea of worthy and unworthy poor. What do people want addicts and ex-offenders to do? If they can't get a job right this second they still have to pay for food/bills/rent/and, yes, their addiction. If we give them nothing then what they do they do? They lose their home and they beg and/or commit crimes to survive. We need a better safety net than that as a society.

I know a few tory voters (not many thankfully) and most are always spouting Daily Mail crap about people on benefits or stay home mums. Some even vote Tory as their deceased parent did so. On the whole these people tend towards selfish and competitive (bar one who just is quite naive)

The problem with the 'politics of envy', that is often thrown at people that care about the vulnerable or inequality, is that just because someone is rich doesn't mean they earned or deserve it. Plenty of lower paid people work harder. Some rich were handed it on a plate.

At the end of the day, any person that votes for a party wanting to take money of severely disabled people has to wonder why they are OK with that. How bad does it need not get before we realise that society should be more than selfish individualism and wanting to gain for oneself rather than wanting all to gain (eg private schooling).

The Tories - and there are very many - even if they are not on this thread obviously want to help the less fortunate and we all believe in the welfare state. It is just there are different ways of helping people. The left's way is wrong buit let us see what happens in the next general election. I certainly support democracy.

"Some rich were handed it on a plate. "

The UK has one of the lowest levels fo social mbility in the developed world, the "hard work and personal choices" ethos of the Daily Mail readers on here has been proved to be a load of hocum by recent studies wioch say that basically even if you work hard you get fewer opportunites if you come from lower down in the social strata, and that the wealthier have errected larger barriers since we have improved education and particicularly higher education. They used to say that the reason you didn't do as well as them is because they stuck in and got qualified, now people get qualified but they need significan work ex and other thins that make it difficult for those trying to get on who don't have access to these privilliges.

On a plate , mostly, not some.

Genuinely not goady - Eustace what would you say the Tory way of helping the less fortunate is?

I realise that rreads as slightly antagonistic but couldn't think how to phrase it sounding more neutral! It is a genuine question.

Odd socks I hate the idea of worthy/unworthy poor too. Just felt I needs to give an example someone like Eustace could empathise with.
I have worked for Barnardos many of today's addicts are yesterday's abused child.
Often on threads people say " I didn't mean people like you" when calling unemployed people scrounges - I am disabled therefore deserving. My best friend is a healthy unemployed single mum that doesn't mean it's ok for her to struggle to heat her home for example.

What Odd said.^ There for the grace of God...

Wasn't getting at you Seven! Just a general thing of mine - I've known so many people with criminal records and addiction issues and poor choices in relationships etc and they are flawed (I am too) but they're human. The life stories of most of these people break my heart. I've had some bad stuff happen but nothing like some of the people I have met.

Buzzard exactly. I know I could have been one of them. Any of us could with a different upbringing or a different peer group. I haven't been the most privileged but there are things that have helped me not get to the point that others have. I will never judge them for that.

My wording is off. I don't mean "one of them" to sound condescending. I slept rough with the type of people that I mean so I was "one of them" but I had things in my background that made it easier for me to escape. I wasno different to them as a human being though and I still see the people I knew and try to help them.

I didn't think you were odd

Good! Just didn't want it to sound that way as I knew you weren't meaning anything bad!

Labour are in disary

They should be far ahead in the poles at the moment they are having it handed to them on a plate Europe, Conservative party falling apart, tax credits, the terrible budget and the doctors strike

And what is coming from them nothing of significance it's pathetic

Problem is that Labour have a lot to make up from the last election, Corbyn is currently (according to the polls) more popular than Cameron.

A lot of the electorate believe the economic myths put about by the Tories, sadly as they are false and that is what doesn't help Labour.

The Tories are in disary, and will implode before the next election, death by a thousand cuts.

They will pull themselves together the Tories are good at pulling together when they need to

I don't believe Corbyn will ever be PM he is absolutely useless polls I have seen have just put labour slightly ahead now when the Tories are pulling this country apart

But Corbyn isn't useless, he does quite well at PMQs.

Osborne is useless though, what does it take to get him sacked.

Who are the tories going to elect as their new leader Not oxxy, Not Boris, GOve?

Personally, I wouldn't vote for either of them right now.