To wonder why the conservatives won't just tax people more ??

[stopfuckingshoutingatme]

Am I missing something here ?

Clearly there is a scarcity of money - and certain areas are rightly ring fenced .

But don't tell me that most working families can't afford an average of £50 a month - this would exclude people on low income , and for some families it £10 and for some £200 -

The UK is full of families and individuals with disposable income - a minor tax increase for 40% of the working population could raise £11bn

So why won't they do it ??? Baffles me - I would personally rather pay more tax and know that the vulnerable are cared for

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jeremyisahunt, it is not the existence of such families that is a myth. It's the prevalence of the phenomenon.

that's what the tabloid hysteria is about. Reading the press (and this thread) you would think it is much, much more common than it actually is.

Oh no, please don't use the data on MN because people "know" because they have "seen" it.

Oh and don't quote actualy economists who say that yes the wealthiest in society should pay more tax, and that YES those on the higher tax rate benefit more from society so should put more back in.

Noooo, everyone on mumsnet is hard working, nose to the grind and self made ( 18 hour days as a daily thing yeah right, my arse)

for you lurked. I don't care what your chosen economists say or if you think those of us paying higher rate tax benefit more from society (not sure exactly what you mean by that). My family already pay a huge amount of money in tax and I don't want us to pay any more.

My family are not heavy users of public services and have been net contributors for over 25 years. I've yet to see what the benefit to us is of paying all that tax so jog on with thinking we should pay even more.

So you'll discount the work of eminent experts because it suits your pocket? Well done on constructing a valid argument there.

The wealthiest benefit more from society becuase in ordrer for them to be able to earn so much society has to function. To do that we need education, health care, civil services, social services, the rule of law and its enforcement etc etc. Without those things the earning ability of those who are the best off would be very much diminished, the fact that you don't use public services directly doesn't mean jack, because the people who facilitate your earning power do and without the public services operating you wouldn't be able to earn.

The current tax system is designed so that the high earners and the wealthiest are kept that way, effectively subsidised by the cuts to public services and benefits. In effect the middle and bottom are made worse off in order to allow the best off tohave their cake and eat it.

You can jog on if you disagree about paying more tax, cause at the moment effectively your freeloading some of your benefits.

I think that a lot of people don't know much about the tax brackets and how they work.

Also, it's worth remembering (and this has applied to me personally) that if you tax too highly, the thing which generates the tax may well not get done. For me it was working in a fairly niche capability on Sundays. After tax (I would have lost my personal allowance so in effect paying 60% tax on what I would have earned), it wasn't really worth it for me so I didn't do it and as no one else was suitably qualified and located to do it, it didn't get done.

I wonder whether that's a common occurrence?

"Also, it's worth remembering (and this has applied to me personally) that if you tax too highly, the thing which generates the tax may well not get done"

Nah the Laffer Curve has been repeatedly discredited. It may have an effect on a very low scale but no major scale, when the higher rate of tax was 60% in the early 80s people still did their jobs.

I'm not dismissing anything lurked I'm just saying I don't care what your supposedly eminent experts say, my family already makes a very significant contribution by way of tax and I do not think we should have to pay more.

Your argument seems to be that if tax rates aren't increased society will break down, anarchy on the streets and shoeless urchins being sent up chimneys instead of going to school. What a load of piffle. There is plenty of money in the system, it's just not used properly.

I have no way of knowing if what your pet economists say has been challenged by other economists as you didn't cite your sources, so all I can say is that people like me and husband who already pay lots of tax do not want to pay more.

And p.s. lurked if anyone is freeloading it is not people like me whose entire income is taxed through PAYE. So jog on and think of that. anyone who claims benefits, tax credits etc should be grateful that there are mugs like me who do high stress jobs and pay tens of thousands of pounds in tax every year so that they Can get hand outs.

No you are freeloading if you are not paying a full contribution for all of the things that you benefit from. Please don't start talking about handouts because YOU benefit from an effective wealth subsidy because you don't pay enough at the higher end.

So its been explained well that trickle down economics doesn't work, Ha Joon Chang and many others have said this. The higher rate of tax being so low is an effective subsidy by the rest of society to the wealthiest.

Corporations need to pay a higher rate, Capital gains needs to be higher, we need land tax like they have in the States.We also need to pay better rates to people lower down the system, a more equal society benefits everyone, not just those at the bottom.

Oh and I'm never going to be greatful dear, I'm a higher rate payer too, I work long hours all of the things that you talk about. I own two zone 2 London properties, I'm quite frankly minted, and I think we should pay more.

anyone who claims benefits, tax credits etc should be grateful that there are mugs like me who do high stress jobs and pay tens of thousands of pounds in tax every year so that they Can get hand outs.

You do your high stress/high paid job for yourself not for other peoples' benefit - nobody needs to be grateful to you.

Jog on up your own arse!

What a load of nonsense lurked if you own those properties and are as civic minded as you say it is YOU that is part of the problem, not people like me. YOU are contributing to people in London not being able to afford to buy, why not sell those properties to people who need somewhere to live, instead of hoarding wealth for yourself? You could even give the proceeds to a worthy charity, perhaps something for the disadvantaged in society who you think we should give even more of our earned income to.

Perhaps YOU personally are so wealthy that you could afford to pay tax at 60% on your entire income? My family is not. You still haven't explained how paying tens of thousands of pounds a year in tax is not paying for everything my family uses, especially when we pay for private schooling and healthcare.

for lurked and greenish. I'm off out so I'll leave you to your muddled thinking and woolly grasp of the real world.

Haha, still not constructed an argument against mine have you? No logic or analysis, leading me to the conclusion that your a bit of a simpleton, especially as you tell me I haven't explained something which I have clearly done.

Oh and my London properties are a flat, which I let out below the market rate to help out someone, and my home which I bought years ago.

You've explained nothing lurked. All you've said is that some economists say trickle down theory doesn't work. No explanation of why that is or what it is you think me and my family benefit from that we haven't paid for by contributing £££££ every year in tax.

Really have to go now, perhaps you will provide an explanation suitable for simpletons while I am away?

Oh and no one would pay 60% of their entire income, no one does pay even remotely anything like 45% of their entire income.

If you earn £200,000 you pay 42% in tax and NI, so stop blubbering on about losing half "your" money. Its only "your" money because society facilitated you to be able to earn it, and because of that you need to contribute more back.

I have explained its above...

But let me go further.

You don't "earn" your money alone. Society must work in order for you to do so, the law needs to protect your rights, your employees need health care and education, which facilitates your earning. You need infrastructure in order to trade goods and services, etc etc. Without these things you wouldn't be earning anything, and as it facilitates you to have a high standard of living you need to contribute more for it.

We take collective responsibility when banks fail, when we go to war, when all sorts of things happen, but not when it comes to "earning" that is individual, strange that those arguments are put forward by those who have a vested interest in keeping more of the money than they should.

The left can scream all they like but they are not winning. We have a Tory government. Labour are in disarry and due to Corbyn it is likely we will get another 5 years of Tory rule and although in my view the Tories are pretty wet and far too high tax they are better than Labour. There are many economists who support the libertarian view and the view that high tax means less money available for the poor.

I would certainly support at 20% flat tax and abolition of all tax reliefs. I am not against a universal income of say £10k a year for every adult too as long as we abolish all tax reliefs and benefits and have that £10k as a benefits cap.

lurked101 if only there were a few more landlords around like you or indeed people in general.

Like i said on another thread a good example is a care worker. If that care worker cant afford to live in London or commute in or cant afford to do the job at all because the pay is so low..........there would be plenty of moaning whining and screaming from the person in the high paid job career who then has to take time off work to wipe their OWN elderly relatives arse because the care worker cant afford to do it anymore.

It's a slightly silly question as this is the opposite of Conservative policy/ manifesto

I would personally rather pay more tax and know that the vulnerable are cared for . So would lots of people and that's why they vote for a party that agrees with this!!

• job/career.

in fairness Anthony your response does seem to be "I don't care what economics experts say, I still don't want to pay more tax"

which is fair enough, but not really an argument.

Lurked what percentage of someone's earnings are facilitated by society and what percentage would you put down to hard graft and putting in the hours?

Surely everyone is facilitated by society to work?

Labour are in disarray

And the Tories are really United aren't they?

I suspect we will get another Conservative government and some of the posters here who don't want to pay any more tax are the reason why.