To think we should note how quickly the media suggests the causes of attrocities?

[JeremyCunt]

First, and above all, my thoughts are with all those affected by the terrible events in Belgium. I'm so very sorry this has happened.

I think it is notable how quickly the mainstream media suggests who is behind it (this started even before the event - "expect 'revenge attacks' " etc). Facts simply cannot be adequately known at this stage. Certainly there's been no time for any thorough/impartial investigation (not that the impartiality element is likely to ever happen). And yet we're being led quite quickly to certain conclusions ("The attacks come four days after Salah Abdeslam, the main fugitive in the Paris attacks, was seized in Brussels" states the BBC). I'm making no comment about the veracity of these conclusions, but I think they're yet another demonstration of how easy we - the populus - are to lead.

[MistressMia]

The discussions that need to be had are why are so many young people in support and are prepared to become terrorists often giving up their own life and are willing to kill so many others

and

I am not sure how it helps if the general Muslim population are on the defense all the time. This leads into discussions we have heard a million times Islam is a peaceful religion, these terrorists are not real Muslims, no Muslims support these acts only those who are deluded etc

and

the subject moved along to something that might not seem so offensive to the Muslims

are completely related.

The muslim responses are glib and superficial.

To the moderate muslims needs to be put the specifics regarding such things as killing in retaliation for blasphemy.

Is it right that Muhammed condoned the killing of blasphemers ?

www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=38&translator=3&start=0&number=4348#4348
----------------------------
Book 38, Number 4348:
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:

A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peacebeuponhim) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peacebeuponhim) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peacebeupon_him) was informed about it.

He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.

He sat before the Prophet (peacebeupon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.

Thereupon the Prophet (peacebeupon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood
----------------------------
Book 38, Number 4349:

Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:

A Jewess used to abuse the Prophet (peacebeupon_him) and disparage him. A man strangled her till she died.

The Apostle of Allah (peacebeupon_him) declared that no recompense was payable for her blood
---------------------------


Muhammed's sanctioning of the above surely has some factor in why 25% of British muslims have sympathies for the Hebdo murderers and why others were motivated to carry out the executions.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/one-in-four-british-muslims-have-some-sympathy-for-motives-behind-charlie-hebdo-attacks-10068440.html

So once again, we come back to having to put Islam and its founder under the spotlight. There is no getting round this and muslim sensibilities are going have to be offended.

Moderates get defensive either because they are ignorant of Islamic history or because they are embarrassed about it, hence the movement towards pronouncing all Hadiths as inauthentic.

It'll be a start if reformists can manage that - it'll be difficult though as it will also mean shelving all the other innocuous rituals and practices that derive from Hadiths and that contribute to daily practice. This is probably why, the 'Quranist' reformist crowd are making very little headway (plus which the other problem remains in that the Quran itself is also is full of violence and hatred).

[LumelaMme]

I thought the Ivory Coast and Ankara attacks were impossible to miss, and I usually only have Radio 4 news on for about 20-30 mins a day, and perhaps glance at the BBC website. I tend only to go deeper if there's something I want to know more about.

What Boko H gets up to in Nigeria, now, that's a lot lower down the list. Partly because it's happening to brown people, partly because it's further away, partly because it's all kicking off at the end of a dirt road somewhere with no internet or phone signal.

[GobbolinoCat]

News is PRODUCT of course the producers feel attacks where we are closer to will be of more interest.

There isnt just attacks by isis in other parts of the world...many otther groups with aims we dont hear about much.

[LanaLang66]

maydance said "My DH job involved visitng a lot of Asian businesses in Bradford at teh time of the 9/11 attacks and many, many 'ordinary' Muslims were openly rejoicing".

I'm afraid this is my own observation too. And I saw glee on the faces of some muslim shopkeepers in my area after Paris (they have a TV on).

I am on nodding terms with a number of muslim people. However friendly and gracious they may be, if you invite the ladies to your home they may well accept but they will not partake of anything. I do not keep a halal household and I am therefore haram. THIS is a big stumbling block as this sort of superstition prevents the first small steps to proper integration.

[CutTheWaffle]

The so-called moderate muslims are moderate because they choose to be, and as most Christians have moved away from the Old Testament and practise the New Testament, the moderates extrapolate only the good points of the Koran.

You may find the following shocking but it is correct. It is Islamic State who is living and practising as laid down by the Koran. They are conducting themselves exactly as the Prophet intended.

[CutTheWaffle]

To LanaLang. Yes, this is still a problem. My father is Pakistani and I do remember one or two of his sisters being like that. But you find it mostly with Muslims from other parts of the world. My English mother tried to engage with a Somali lady in our street beause I was friendly with her daughters and they would come to our house but always declined to take refreshment or snack. Their mother also would not - so yes Lana it is difficult to move forward, because food and drink is part of socialising.

[LanaLang66]

What's also disturbing is how willing these loons are to go after their fellow-muslims.

IS and Boko Haram believe they are true muslims. That was my point previously. They believe they are living by the principles of the prophet, but other muslims are not. That is why so many muslims, mostly Shia, have been eliminated during the current fighting.

The divide between Sunnis and Shia is the largest and oldest in the history of Islam. Sunnis outnumber shia, and regard themselves as the orthodox branch of Islam.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16047709

[MistressMia]

To those who say terrorist attacks are in reprisal for Western intervention, another attack against Christian minorities:

Pakistan terror attack: 72 dead after suicide bomber strikes children's play area in Lahore

The blast mainly killed women and children

The splinter group Jamaatul Ahrar, a faction of the Pakistani Taliban, claimed responsibility for the attack and said it had deliberately targeted Christians on Easter Sunday 'We claim responsibility for the attack on Christians as they were celebrating Easter''

Stop making excuses and wake-up before these terror attacks become common place here as well.

British Sunni muslim extremists have already started targeting Ahmedi's and Shia's, culminating in Asad Shah's murder.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/after-asad-shahs-religiously-prejudiced-death-we-know-inter-muslim-hatred-is-a-problem-in-britain-a6955146.html

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hardliners-call-for-deaths-of-surrey-muslims-2112268.html

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/sunni-vs-shia-in-gerrards-cross-new-mosque-highlights-growing-tensions-among-british-muslims-8671969.html

I am so sick of Western apologists making excuses for evil scum just because they happen to be muslim.

And yes they are 'real muslims'.

And to the moderate muslims reading this: please reflect on your reverence of a Book and prophet that exhorts hatred and violence to unbelievers.

Your oft-quoted 'out-of-context' is clearly flawed as 1400 years of on-going persecution has clearly shown.

You shouldn't be out protesting 'Not in my Name' - You should be publicly burning the Quran and cursing Muhammed.

[TalkingintheDark]

Thank you for those very interesting links, Mia. I had only heard of the Ahmadis via this blog (Iram Ramzan) before:

iramramzan.wordpress.com/2015/09/27/when-is-a-mosque-not-a-mosque-when-its-an-ahmadi-mosque/

Those articles added a lot to my understanding.

[unlucky83]

mistress what about the Ahmadi's ? I confess I had never heard of them before but they obviously consider themselves to be Muslim...and seem to be tolerant. ...could that not be a way forward?
For Muslims who want to believe in a God but couldn't associate with Christianity or Judaism? A kind of half way house.
I get the feeling comparing Wahhabism to the Ahmadis is like comparing the Catholics of the Spanish Inquisition to the Quakers...
I was brought up Christian - would described myself I guess as agnostic - but also have dealings with local church (Church of Scotland). I have little to say about their leadership/heads of the church (I don't really know) but in my experience the normal church goers are good kind people and they help the community, they would be missed. I'm not sure they could be as organised and do so much good without the umbrella of their faith.

[sportinguista]

Excellent post Mistress with many interesting links. Since I first saw a link about the Ahmahdi on another post I've done some reading and it is quite fascinating. I didn't know about them. They do sound like a force for reform but that seems precisely why they are being targeted.

It seems to me that there is a rise in sectarianism in the Islamic faith in this country as the population has grown and this is now becoming a problem. How can it be stopped? We don't want repeats of this man's murder happening across the country.

[EnthusiasmDisturbed]

I do not believe that if many were to give up their religion and see the truth as maybe you or I see it it would be an end to violence there is always something to separate people by, there will always be those that crave power and will manipulate others so they gain that power, there will always be splits in society them and us

I can see the argument it is taken out of context its was writted x amoutn of years ago and relevant then as life was violent for those that do not support violence as I can see that is it not for those that do support the violence

the worrying thing and something that has been going on for a good 20 years is that many young people are more interested in this more violent, aggressive and tradional islam that is not compatable with modern day life as it isn't progressive. the givernments have turned a blind eye, there has been an acceptance of this in our society and we pat ourselves on the back for being a society that allows such freedoms yet we also see ourselves as a progressive society - its dosent always go hand in hand

[JeremyCunt]

And to the moderate muslims reading this: please reflect on your reverence of a Book and prophet that exhorts hatred and violence to unbelievers.

Does this apply also to moderate Christianity and Judaism? There's some equally violent stuff in the revered holy texts of both.

[BillSykesDog]

It's such a shame Jeremy. Because it's occurred to me how well you and emilybohemia would have hit it off as you seem to have so many of the same views and opinions. But I suppose we'll never know because she stopped posting the day you started. Funny that. Could have been a beautiful thing!

[LumelaMme]

Does this apply also to moderate Christianity and Judaism? There's some equally violent stuff in the revered holy texts of both.
Christianity, as I was taught at primary school, exhorts one to turn the other cheek.

[LanaLang66]

AHMADIYYA. This is what Wiki says about this sect of Islam. They appear to be the 'reformers' of Islam.

Ahmadiyya Muslim Community is an Islamic religious movement founded in Punjab, British India, near the end of the 19th century. It originated with the life and teachings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835–1908), who claimed to have appeared in fulfilment of the prophecies concerning the world's reformer during the end times, who was to bring about, by peaceful means, the final triumph of Islam and herald the eschaton as predicted in Islamic scriptures as well as the traditions of various world religions. He claimed to have been divinely appointed as the Renewer of Islam, the promised Messiah awaited by Muslims.

Ahmadis believe that Islam is the final dispensation for humanity as revealed to Muhammad and the necessity of restoring to it its true essence and pristine form, which had been lost through the centuries. Ahmadiyya adherents believe that Ahmad appeared in the likeness of Jesus, to end religious wars, condemn bloodshed and reinstitute morality, justice, and peace. They believe that upon divine guidance he divested Islam of fanatical beliefs and practices by championing what is, in their view, Islam’s true and essential teachings as practised by Muhammad and the early Islamic community. Thus, Ahmadis view themselves as leading the revival and peaceful propagation of Islam.

[MistressMia]

Unfortunately Islam cannot be reformed through Ahmadi's as the latter have beliefs that are antithetical to mainstream Sunni Islam.

The biggest bone of contention and why they are so reviled is because in Sunni Muslim eyes, the Ahmadi's founder Mirza Ghulam Ahmed, virtually declared himself to be a Prophet as he said he had revelations from God. This contradicts orthodox teaching, the Quran (i.e. Allah) says that Muhammed is the final Prophet.

Thus Sunnis see him as a False Messiah (a Dajjal).

NB The leader of ISIS is also viewed as a Dajjal ( Sunni Islam teaches that there will be 30 such false Messiah's before the return of the true Messiah -Jesus).

.....anyway it's too late to be writing about all this superstitious claptrap.

In summary Ahmadis are at best persona non grata, as this sad account shows: www.dawn.com/news/1221698.

The GEO channel in the blog Talking posted about above aired a programme in the UK that went as far as Pakistani Mullahs stating that Ahmadis should be killed. The link for anybody who understands Urdu is on the thread on Asad Shah.

[MistressMia]

Jeremy Gosh, you're right

..... Christians & Jews: Please stop blowing yourselves up, crucifying people, taking sex slaves, raping minorities, burning people in cages, throwing gays of buildings etc etc

[MistressMia]

Further disgusting examples of hatred & intolerance:

Worshippers told at Tooting Islamic Centre to boycott Ahmadiyya shops

This is from the mosque that Sadiq Khan, the London mayoral candidate attends.

[mimishimmi]

JeremyCunt - I think you are pretty corrct in so far as who has vested interests in sponsoring and funding certain things (9/11 was dodgy as hell and, yes, my DH was there). People are generally in denial about the level of criminality in our own system- usually out of fear, sometimes out of self-interest. It's like Dachau/Treblinka/Soviet gulags never happened and they don't think the perpetrators and the ideologies behjnd those atrocities survived. They very much did and they hate us for knowing/judging them for what they did.

Nonetheless, the fact remains that they are finding sufficient people within Muslim communities to do all these terrible things too (ISIS, fly planes etc). There is a problem. The level of collaboration is just staggering. My grandfather, who was part of the Occupation forces in Japan, always reckoned that elements within the US/European elite were egging them on and arming them knowing full well what atrocities they were committing and then they destroyed Japan knowing they'd get even richer off the rebuilding contracts.

The demographic collapse in Western countries has them in a panic.

[LumelaMme]

What the hell are you on about, mimi? One of the reasons Japan went to war against America and Britain in 1941 was because sanctions brought in as a result of Japanese actions in China. Not because those countries had been flogging Japan arms. The U.K. tried to stop Japan getting up to date info on aircraft development.

The West has done plenty of stupid and venal things over the years, but there's no need to make up any more.

[EnthusiasmDisturbed]

Oh yes that's right it's because the twin towers fell too quickly or was it too slowly

And Osama bin Laden was on the CIA payroll

All so obvious nothing to do with terrorism all an inside job

is just one of the ridiculous conspiracy theories

[oliviaclottedcream]

I think the OP is suggesting that the who and what is really behind these attacks may be a lot more nuanced than the story the media give us? That's my interpretation

[sportinguista]

But the media cannot speculate on what they may or may not believe. They have to report the facts as they come out. There have been some arrests, some people have been released due to lack of evidence. It will take a long while and a lot of detective work before we know the truth and we may never know all of it.

We can read between the lines, draw our own conclusions but aside from them having identified the men who blew themselves up we don't know for sure much more.

The media can suggest a certain scenario may be likely but they have to qualify that with the fact that it is not certain etc.