To think we should note how quickly the media suggests the causes of attrocities?

[JeremyCunt]

First, and above all, my thoughts are with all those affected by the terrible events in Belgium. I'm so very sorry this has happened.

I think it is notable how quickly the mainstream media suggests who is behind it (this started even before the event - "expect 'revenge attacks' " etc). Facts simply cannot be adequately known at this stage. Certainly there's been no time for any thorough/impartial investigation (not that the impartiality element is likely to ever happen). And yet we're being led quite quickly to certain conclusions ("The attacks come four days after Salah Abdeslam, the main fugitive in the Paris attacks, was seized in Brussels" states the BBC). I'm making no comment about the veracity of these conclusions, but I think they're yet another demonstration of how easy we - the populus - are to lead.

[BillSykesDog]

louche, they're on nothing like the same scale. In fact, when looking at the West, if you're having to go back to a bomber from 21 years ago just to find 2 terrorists whose total fatalities are less than Islamists have killed this month alone doesn't that tell you something?

[LoucheLady]

Christians & Jews: Please stop blowing yourselves up, crucifying people, taking sex slaves, raping minorities, burning people in cages, throwing gays of buildings etc etc

Ever heard of Timothy McVeigh? Anders Breivik? the Lord's Resistance Army? the anti-Balakas? It might not get as widely reported, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[sportinguista]

The key might be using several media sources and kind of cross referencing. I know many of the papers have differing takes on things as have the TV. With a DH coming from abroad and reading his country's media we often get different information from there and some stories that are not even reported here.

It is difficult as we do rely on the media to give us information but I guess we always have to use our own judgement as to when we think we are seeing media bias/omission etc.

[oliviaclottedcream]

Yes but the argument is that the media do not state directly what they believe, but they fail to create balance by the omission of certain stuff and that they promote, through implication and emphasis, (or lack of), what they believe and its always the gov't line.

I agree with this view to a certain extent, but I do have some reservations.

[sportinguista]

But the media cannot speculate on what they may or may not believe. They have to report the facts as they come out. There have been some arrests, some people have been released due to lack of evidence. It will take a long while and a lot of detective work before we know the truth and we may never know all of it.

We can read between the lines, draw our own conclusions but aside from them having identified the men who blew themselves up we don't know for sure much more.

The media can suggest a certain scenario may be likely but they have to qualify that with the fact that it is not certain etc.

[oliviaclottedcream]

I think the OP is suggesting that the who and what is really behind these attacks may be a lot more nuanced than the story the media give us? That's my interpretation

[EnthusiasmDisturbed]

Oh yes that's right it's because the twin towers fell too quickly or was it too slowly

And Osama bin Laden was on the CIA payroll

All so obvious nothing to do with terrorism all an inside job

is just one of the ridiculous conspiracy theories

[LumelaMme]

What the hell are you on about, mimi? One of the reasons Japan went to war against America and Britain in 1941 was because sanctions brought in as a result of Japanese actions in China. Not because those countries had been flogging Japan arms. The U.K. tried to stop Japan getting up to date info on aircraft development.

The West has done plenty of stupid and venal things over the years, but there's no need to make up any more.

[mimishimmi]

JeremyCunt - I think you are pretty corrct in so far as who has vested interests in sponsoring and funding certain things (9/11 was dodgy as hell and, yes, my DH was there). People are generally in denial about the level of criminality in our own system- usually out of fear, sometimes out of self-interest. It's like Dachau/Treblinka/Soviet gulags never happened and they don't think the perpetrators and the ideologies behjnd those atrocities survived. They very much did and they hate us for knowing/judging them for what they did.

Nonetheless, the fact remains that they are finding sufficient people within Muslim communities to do all these terrible things too (ISIS, fly planes etc). There is a problem. The level of collaboration is just staggering. My grandfather, who was part of the Occupation forces in Japan, always reckoned that elements within the US/European elite were egging them on and arming them knowing full well what atrocities they were committing and then they destroyed Japan knowing they'd get even richer off the rebuilding contracts.

The demographic collapse in Western countries has them in a panic.

[MistressMia]

Further disgusting examples of hatred & intolerance:

Worshippers told at Tooting Islamic Centre to boycott Ahmadiyya shops

This is from the mosque that Sadiq Khan, the London mayoral candidate attends.

[MistressMia]

Jeremy Gosh, you're right

..... Christians & Jews: Please stop blowing yourselves up, crucifying people, taking sex slaves, raping minorities, burning people in cages, throwing gays of buildings etc etc

[MistressMia]

Unfortunately Islam cannot be reformed through Ahmadi's as the latter have beliefs that are antithetical to mainstream Sunni Islam.

The biggest bone of contention and why they are so reviled is because in Sunni Muslim eyes, the Ahmadi's founder Mirza Ghulam Ahmed, virtually declared himself to be a Prophet as he said he had revelations from God. This contradicts orthodox teaching, the Quran (i.e. Allah) says that Muhammed is the final Prophet.

Thus Sunnis see him as a False Messiah (a Dajjal).

NB The leader of ISIS is also viewed as a Dajjal ( Sunni Islam teaches that there will be 30 such false Messiah's before the return of the true Messiah -Jesus).

.....anyway it's too late to be writing about all this superstitious claptrap.

In summary Ahmadis are at best persona non grata, as this sad account shows: www.dawn.com/news/1221698.

The GEO channel in the blog Talking posted about above aired a programme in the UK that went as far as Pakistani Mullahs stating that Ahmadis should be killed. The link for anybody who understands Urdu is on the thread on Asad Shah.

[LanaLang66]

AHMADIYYA. This is what Wiki says about this sect of Islam. They appear to be the 'reformers' of Islam.

Ahmadiyya Muslim Community is an Islamic religious movement founded in Punjab, British India, near the end of the 19th century. It originated with the life and teachings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835–1908), who claimed to have appeared in fulfilment of the prophecies concerning the world's reformer during the end times, who was to bring about, by peaceful means, the final triumph of Islam and herald the eschaton as predicted in Islamic scriptures as well as the traditions of various world religions. He claimed to have been divinely appointed as the Renewer of Islam, the promised Messiah awaited by Muslims.

Ahmadis believe that Islam is the final dispensation for humanity as revealed to Muhammad and the necessity of restoring to it its true essence and pristine form, which had been lost through the centuries. Ahmadiyya adherents believe that Ahmad appeared in the likeness of Jesus, to end religious wars, condemn bloodshed and reinstitute morality, justice, and peace. They believe that upon divine guidance he divested Islam of fanatical beliefs and practices by championing what is, in their view, Islam’s true and essential teachings as practised by Muhammad and the early Islamic community. Thus, Ahmadis view themselves as leading the revival and peaceful propagation of Islam.

[LumelaMme]

Does this apply also to moderate Christianity and Judaism? There's some equally violent stuff in the revered holy texts of both.
Christianity, as I was taught at primary school, exhorts one to turn the other cheek.

[BillSykesDog]

It's such a shame Jeremy. Because it's occurred to me how well you and emilybohemia would have hit it off as you seem to have so many of the same views and opinions. But I suppose we'll never know because she stopped posting the day you started. Funny that. Could have been a beautiful thing!

[JeremyCunt]

And to the moderate muslims reading this: please reflect on your reverence of a Book and prophet that exhorts hatred and violence to unbelievers.

Does this apply also to moderate Christianity and Judaism? There's some equally violent stuff in the revered holy texts of both.

[EnthusiasmDisturbed]

I do not believe that if many were to give up their religion and see the truth as maybe you or I see it it would be an end to violence there is always something to separate people by, there will always be those that crave power and will manipulate others so they gain that power, there will always be splits in society them and us

I can see the argument it is taken out of context its was writted x amoutn of years ago and relevant then as life was violent for those that do not support violence as I can see that is it not for those that do support the violence

the worrying thing and something that has been going on for a good 20 years is that many young people are more interested in this more violent, aggressive and tradional islam that is not compatable with modern day life as it isn't progressive. the givernments have turned a blind eye, there has been an acceptance of this in our society and we pat ourselves on the back for being a society that allows such freedoms yet we also see ourselves as a progressive society - its dosent always go hand in hand

[sportinguista]

Excellent post Mistress with many interesting links. Since I first saw a link about the Ahmahdi on another post I've done some reading and it is quite fascinating. I didn't know about them. They do sound like a force for reform but that seems precisely why they are being targeted.

It seems to me that there is a rise in sectarianism in the Islamic faith in this country as the population has grown and this is now becoming a problem. How can it be stopped? We don't want repeats of this man's murder happening across the country.

[unlucky83]

mistress what about the Ahmadi's ? I confess I had never heard of them before but they obviously consider themselves to be Muslim...and seem to be tolerant. ...could that not be a way forward?
For Muslims who want to believe in a God but couldn't associate with Christianity or Judaism? A kind of half way house.
I get the feeling comparing Wahhabism to the Ahmadis is like comparing the Catholics of the Spanish Inquisition to the Quakers...
I was brought up Christian - would described myself I guess as agnostic - but also have dealings with local church (Church of Scotland). I have little to say about their leadership/heads of the church (I don't really know) but in my experience the normal church goers are good kind people and they help the community, they would be missed. I'm not sure they could be as organised and do so much good without the umbrella of their faith.

[TalkingintheDark]

Thank you for those very interesting links, Mia. I had only heard of the Ahmadis via this blog (Iram Ramzan) before:

iramramzan.wordpress.com/2015/09/27/when-is-a-mosque-not-a-mosque-when-its-an-ahmadi-mosque/

Those articles added a lot to my understanding.

[MistressMia]

To those who say terrorist attacks are in reprisal for Western intervention, another attack against Christian minorities:

Pakistan terror attack: 72 dead after suicide bomber strikes children's play area in Lahore

The blast mainly killed women and children

The splinter group Jamaatul Ahrar, a faction of the Pakistani Taliban, claimed responsibility for the attack and said it had deliberately targeted Christians on Easter Sunday 'We claim responsibility for the attack on Christians as they were celebrating Easter''

Stop making excuses and wake-up before these terror attacks become common place here as well.

British Sunni muslim extremists have already started targeting Ahmedi's and Shia's, culminating in Asad Shah's murder.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/after-asad-shahs-religiously-prejudiced-death-we-know-inter-muslim-hatred-is-a-problem-in-britain-a6955146.html

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hardliners-call-for-deaths-of-surrey-muslims-2112268.html

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/sunni-vs-shia-in-gerrards-cross-new-mosque-highlights-growing-tensions-among-british-muslims-8671969.html

I am so sick of Western apologists making excuses for evil scum just because they happen to be muslim.

And yes they are 'real muslims'.

And to the moderate muslims reading this: please reflect on your reverence of a Book and prophet that exhorts hatred and violence to unbelievers.

Your oft-quoted 'out-of-context' is clearly flawed as 1400 years of on-going persecution has clearly shown.

You shouldn't be out protesting 'Not in my Name' - You should be publicly burning the Quran and cursing Muhammed.

[LanaLang66]

What's also disturbing is how willing these loons are to go after their fellow-muslims.

IS and Boko Haram believe they are true muslims. That was my point previously. They believe they are living by the principles of the prophet, but other muslims are not. That is why so many muslims, mostly Shia, have been eliminated during the current fighting.

The divide between Sunnis and Shia is the largest and oldest in the history of Islam. Sunnis outnumber shia, and regard themselves as the orthodox branch of Islam.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16047709

[CutTheWaffle]

To LanaLang. Yes, this is still a problem. My father is Pakistani and I do remember one or two of his sisters being like that. But you find it mostly with Muslims from other parts of the world. My English mother tried to engage with a Somali lady in our street beause I was friendly with her daughters and they would come to our house but always declined to take refreshment or snack. Their mother also would not - so yes Lana it is difficult to move forward, because food and drink is part of socialising.

[CutTheWaffle]

The so-called moderate muslims are moderate because they choose to be, and as most Christians have moved away from the Old Testament and practise the New Testament, the moderates extrapolate only the good points of the Koran.

You may find the following shocking but it is correct. It is Islamic State who is living and practising as laid down by the Koran. They are conducting themselves exactly as the Prophet intended.