AIBU to think its become shameful to admit to getting tax credits?

[smallspikyleaves]

it certainly is in my circle

I have had mine reduced recently and was moaning about it only for most of my friends to be kind of like, oh we don't get any anymore. when I would actually put money on that they actually do

It just used to be a given that most people with families got some. and people used to openly discuss it in my experience. now its all hush hush and taboo I think

smallspikyleaves I don't agree with your attitude at all. How come you think the world owes you a decent standard of living, as well as lots of leisure time? How do you see this working out on a grand scale?

So you are planning on committing tax fraud. If everyone did this (well those who could anyway, i.e. the self employed), we'd arrive at a situation with very little public funds and a pay-per-use system for healthcare, roads, schools, possibly even policing. Good idea?

I don't think you are lazy at all, like many, you are making the decision to work less hours because of small children. That's both understandable and commendable: however it doesn't mean it should be financed by the government.

I'm just sick of grafting and getting fuck all

Can't remember if I mentioned up thread. But dh is in a professional management job working for a global company. It's more than double min wage.

I earn more than min wage (not quite double but almost)

Dh second job earns prob double min wage too

What I am angry about is that despite all this we and so many others like is we can't have a decent standard of living. And no one in power is doing anything about it

In reality I think I'd be too shit scared at getting caught to not declare income but it's how I feel!!

But If wanting the odd treat, the odd holiday, a decent car, to be able to pay our mortgage comfortably, to not worry too much if an unexpected bill comes in. is having a sense of entitlement then hold my hands up cos I've got one!!! I can't even afford my oldest to go away with his Cubs group as its 200 quid!! And my mum pays for his subs how embarrassing is that

Anyway I'm rambling now but I cannot be the only one

Exactly, Awake. We are reaping the spoiled fruit (at least here in the US) of a 50-year downward spiral exactly as you describe. We reward the most anti-social behavior and penalize those who display hard work and self-restraint.

As more and more people opt not to reproduce, the resentment toward supporting those who want to do so with little effort or hard work is only going to grow. I guess you in the UK are seeing that in the reduction of tax credits and here in the US policies that support similar lifestyle choices are being curtailed as well. Childfree people and those concerned about the environment are gaining more political clout where once politiciians courted only "families."

As for me "only" working 25 hours well if I worked more I'd need to pay out for a lot more child care therefore wiping out additional earnings and probably more. And I'd be knackered. So what would be the point?

Well, the point is that you would be supporting your own lifestyle instead of fellow citizens getting up and going to work every day to pay taxes to support you. Most of us are knackered, you know.

Self-sufficiency and not taking the dole used to be a virtue. Somehow in the past 30 years or so that attitude waned but I believe it's trending back the other way for the reasons I outlined in other comments. There are simply too many of us and producing more isn't the societal benefit (worthy of being subsidized) that it may once have been deemed. In 100 years with no subsidies whatsoever there still will be too many of us, and if the species makes it, in 500 years.

So assuming that's around £12 p/h

DH - 40 hours at £12 p/h = £480
You - 20 hours at £12 p/h = £240

That's £720 a week. Less in practice I know because of tax. But then Child benefit for three children and Tax credits for three children - it's not living on the poverty line OP.

Believe me I know how you feel as I am saving for something and things just KEEP happening - it's annoying but it's just life I think.

Can I just point out that the income disregard has been halved and thousands of people are going to be told to pay back their tax credits from last year? Very few people seem to know that this has happened as it wasn't widely reported. The Tories made out that the tax credits cut had been cancelled or postponed but then did it anyway.

Yep yak that's true

Utter cunts

And yeah I'm not on the poverty line thank god!!! No where near so I know I'm lucky In a way

Just really fucks me off not being able to afford much more than the very basics

Surely people don't get tax credits when earning £720 a week !! Do you live in a particularly expensive part of the country Spiky ? Or are the tax creidts mostly for childcare? ( sorry haven't read the whole thread).

It will be quite a bit more than that.

Spiky's partner has a second job which is about 15 hours a week. Even if that's minimum wage, that's about £100 extra a week. So £820.

Then child benefit is just under £50 for three children (£47.60, to be precise.)

So without the tax credits, it's still £867.60 and that's calculated with OP doing 20 hours. She sometimes does 25 - so on those weeks, add another £60 - £927.60 plus tax credits. A week.

Sorry OP, I'm not feeling hugely sympathetic.

Assuming you are on 15k p.a. and your husband is on 28k p.a., this gives you a net monthly take-home pay of ca. £3000, plus £200 a month child benefit, plus tax credits.

(I'm surprised about the tax credits too.)

How on earth can you only afford basics? Do you have very high commuting/childcare/housing costs?

Presumably you worked out a family budget before deciding to have your children?

(You won't have to pay for childcare forever. )

I must say I struggle to understand how your financial situation (which isn't bad btw) is anyone's but your own responsibility?

Actually, this is really strange.

Op says her DHs main job )45 hours per week) earns "more than double" minimum wage.
Her job is not quite double minimum wage but 'almost'
His second job is 'double minimum wage'

That adds up to a pretty significant wad, even if there's a whacking great mortgage there's between £3-4K coming into that household every month

YANBU smallspiky

Not sure why people think it rational and reasonable for the "Laffer curve" to apply to the rich but not the poor.

Also LeaLeelander not sure why childless through economic choice people think they are being selfless. I do agree that they are the ones with the free time energy and money to campaign for disproportionate self-interest. My take is that I am investing in my DC to look after the future of our society and the childless who can afford to should be contributing to that cost.

If ops family are 'poor' on those figures I'm a monkey's uncle.

Yeah I totally agree howabout

Also to those trying to work out my income good guess but we get less than that

Also I have childcare costs which pretty much wipe out my earnings (I'm sure most people with younger kids have this problem!

It will be cheaper when the toddler is at school though

YakTriangle, I'm really concerned about the income disregard being halved to £2500. Surely this won't come into force straight away will it?
I did read about it, but presumed it would come into force next year.
Really worried now.

howabout of course, you are doing it for the greater good and nothing else....

(As a previous poster has pointed out, the planet is overpopulated, and with a projected sharp increase in global population, I'm not quite sure how exactly you having children is helping.)

(By the way, I am not in favour of reducing the argument to population figures, but you've brought up "the future of society ".)

However what this has made me realise is that dh and I need to sit down and look at precisely what's coming in and what's going out. We did it a while back but think needs looking at again :/

But op that still leaves over £2500 a month without your benefits

OP you could try a budgeting software to track your outgoings. I've been doing proper bookkeeping on my personal money for a while, and it's been a revelation.

Also, the folk on the moneysavingexpert forum are pretty good at scrutinising your budget and suggesting ways to reduce spending.

I think society will limp along just fine without any subsidies for childrearing.

And people who want handouts for having kids are always saying that the childfree are going to benefit so much.

Yes, if the child in question doesn't turn out to be low intelligence, criminal, addicted, dependent in some other way, unemployable, a teen parent itself - then it might just pay its own way through tax revenues and such over the course of a lifetime. The notion of it being an actual net gain to society, economically, is quite iffy.

The benefits of not adding a child to society are immediate and unequivocal - a lighter footprint on all infrastructure from education to health care to roads and bridges and airports and public transport, a lighter carbon/garbage footprint on the environment compared to parents, no liability for taxing the social services and courts systems with child custody, child maintenance and other disputes, no potential liability for foisting a criminal on society, etc.

Not sure how it works there but in the US, the mandatory payments we make to the Social Security and Medicare system cannot be bequeathed to a beneficiary in the event of untimely death of a childfree or singleton - but the childed heavily burden the system with minor disability and minor survivor payouts, payouts to caregivers of minors and payouts to stay-home spouses who never contributed, among other inequities and redistribution of funds. We are the cash cows of most social service / public assistance programs yet barred from being helped by them, even in dire straits, because they only benefit people with offspring.

It's about time the child free were accorded the same respect and perks for their choice as the childed currently are, because there certainly are measurable benefits to society when people choose not to procreate. And increasingly minimal "benefits" when people do, especially people who have not really thought it through, saved up in advance to prepare for emergencies or taken care in their selection of co-parent.

There is a huge difference between genuinely struggling to make ends meet and bad money management, I am no saint myself and regularly end up looking at my bank balance wondering 'how' but I know that's because I've spent it on something or flittered it away.

I am pretty irritated that there have been eight pages of how awful the government are not supporting low paid workers only for this to emerge. How about really budgeting for your family op, I think you will find then you can afford 'luxuries' very easily?

I have no idea of the real economics on this but always feel that tax breaks for childcare costs for working parents are a good thing.

However, when people talk about not having enough for more than basics, I think it's useful to see the breakdown of childcare costs - because they are temporary, and because they are significant, and because they are a choice. (accidental pregnancy / twins aside!)

I'm always at the number of people I know with kids clues together - no way would I have planned a second until the the first would at least be ready for the 15 hours funding!

I just don't have any sympathy for only affording the basics when there are three young children.

I don't mean that OP shouldn't have had 3 kids! But I do mean that you have to accept if you do, then you're on basics for a temporary number of years - and accept that. To me, it's like having sod all money when you're a student - it's expected.

I'm interested too in comments like wanting a decent car... I wonder what that means, to people? I've had my car longer than my child. It's 2x her age. It's a 2003 Focus and it's a good size, costs me little (that can be luck I know) and it looks just fine.

It always amazes me in supermarket carparks (not Waitrose!) that I have an "old" car. I suppose it's good for the economy that people do buy - but I always think - who the fuck is buying all these £15K cars (let alone the more expensive ones!)? I think the people's idea of "the basics" (though not necessarily OP, I don't mean this personally) is quite skewed.

Lealander I am glad you are so confident. The population of Japan is projected to fall from 120 million to 85 million by 2060 based on current demographics and even with increasing life expectancy. This is being attributed to non family friendly policies.

Also rising income and economic opportunity for the population as a whole is generally associated with falling average family size. The UK is experiencing an unusual upward trend in birth rates in the face of a 6+ year continuing policy of austerity and increasing income inequality in part driven by government policy.

I question the morality and sustainability of developed economies importing the future population at the expense of the developing World.