To not understand how people can justify it

[ijustdontunderstand]

Okay, not a bun fight I just want to understand how those who vote Tory can think the cuts to disability benefits are OK.

This is NOT saying if you vote Tory you're a bad person, at all, I just want to understand. Will you vote them in again knowing?

*pounds.

Yes, but increasingly few leading mainstream economists think that the Tory way (austerity) is in any way workable. As Paul Krugman pointed out in an article last year (www.theguardian.com/business/ng-interactive/2015/apr/29/the-austerity-delusion) there is the most amazing divide here between the view of Joe Public, who is still convinced that the chancellor has the answer in austerity, and the view of mainstream economists, who have been lining up to say that such uncompromising austerity alone is not the solution.

The confusion seems to be around these strange comparisons of the national economy to the economy of a household ('living beyond your means' etc) - backed up by an attitude to the virtues of work so stiff, self-righteous and dismissive that it could only be replicated by shoving an entire washing pole up the ass of the people espousing it.

I have a friend who writes the economy updates for a major publication who thinks housing crash is just round the corner.

she has been given a scooter as well as her other benefits

What on earth makes you think this, Scarriff? What benefits agency "gave" her a scooter? How can I get one?

Because I'm hoping to get by putting aside money from my mobility DLA plus asking my family to chip in instead of Xmas presents. I currently rent one for the days I can actually get out. And someone recently mentioned shops may lease them longterm, so I need to look into that - again paid out of my existing mobility DLA (until I get ported to PIP and lose it).

So I would LOVE to know what benefits agency hands out scooters.

Page honestly, I think there should be an equivalent of Godwin's law for any discussion involving left and right politics in the UK. Those on the left of the argument always respond (sooner or later) by insulting those on the right and calling them "stupid".

FWIW both DH and I are educated to Ph.D. level. He is from a more privileged background than mine (council estate) but neither of us are exactly stupid. I know some less intelligent people who are on the left as well as some of the brightest people amongst our friends. Resorting to insults about intelligence is simply a failure to acknowledge that there is a debate to be had.

I am not disputing for a minute that less able bodied people will find it more difficult to find suitable employment, but that is not a reason not to try where people are capable of carrying out some useful work. I see this as fairness to those who genuinely cannot by ensuring there is more in the budget to give them a decent life.

I am not disputing for a minute that less able bodied people will find it more difficult to find suitable employment, but that is not a reason not to try where people are capable of carrying out some useful work. I see this as fairness to those who genuinely cannot by ensuring there is more in the budget to give them a decent life.

Oh YoungGirlGrowingOld... Do you really believe that the Government are going to take the £30 a week from those they believe could probably work a bit harder, and give it to those that can't?

That's really sweet.

Just because you're educated to PhD level does not mean that you can't be stupid about many things in life.

There's a difference between the concepts of intelligence and education - intelligence is like the RAM, the raw power, education is the creative work that leads to developed positions that are situated in terms of deep knowledge of a wider debate.

You can be a brilliant, world-leading PhD chemist and utterly lacking in awareness about society, politics, economics. You can be a brilliant, world-leading writer on art history and utterly stupid about quantum physics.

A bit late to this thread but I personally cannot bear the moral superiority of Labour voters who are also aggressive anti-Tory.

I know some absolute cunts who have treated others appallingly but they are somehow better people than me because they vote Labour.

I also hate it when people are 'surprised' than 'intelligent people' can vote Tory. So, a bit of intellectual superiority as well.

And I haven't RTFT so am commenting based on the first few replies

(I'm educated to PhD level and I manage quite astonishing feats of stupidity in relation to maths, I assure you )

I've seen MPs writing things that make them appear similarly deluded about what disabled people might be 'given' or the kind of people that are losing their benefits. There was one yesterday who was kindly explaining that no current claimants would be losing any ESA (because self-interest is all that matters to people, and fuck anyone else who might need help further down the line), and that people in the WRAG had already been found to be fit for work, so it obviously made sense to put them on the same footing as people on JSA. Now either he was brazenly lying, or he had no idea what he'd been voting for. I'm not sure which option I find most disturbing.

Try this quiz.
www.facebook.com/PigGateuk/posts/519275614910297

I learnt plenty about society growing up on a council estate that was rough as a badger's arse, thank you shove. I got out by winning a scholarship to a private prep school (Tory policy) then winning a place at a grammar (Tory policy) then getting a grant to go to university (abolished under Labour).

In my experience it's the doe-eyed and naive middle classes who align themselves with the left and think that gives them some kind of moral superiority over those of us who hold conservative views.

I'm not sure how else to describe people who cling to a false belief in the face of evidence to the contrary, YoungGirl.

The Government is not pretending these cuts are about weeding out cheaters.
The DWP's published fraud figures and stated claim reduction targets prove these cuts are not about weeding out cheaters.

More of the benefits budget goes unclaimed than is paid out in fraudulent claims - £0.2bn to be precise (again, DWP figures).

Yet you persist in peddling the line that "it's right...that those cheating the system are winnowed out". Is that how you got your Ph.D - by ignoring the evidence that didn't fit your hypothesis?

And again, you fail to address the question of where are all the jobs for those who want to work but who need additional support?

It's absolutely right that those who want to work and are capable of work should have support mechanisms in place to allow them to do so - one of those very support mechanisms being DLA, by the way, as it's an in-work benefit - but it has to be carrot rather than stick. The jobs aren't there and the very aids, financial and otherwise, that get people to the point where they can start to, return to or continue to work are being cut, meaning fewer disabled people are likely to be able to work, not more...

...unless you truly believe that the majority of disabled benefit recipients are "cheating the system", of course, and just need to be "incentivised" into work. Which is far from the truth, but since you refuse to believe any other aspect of the reality of the situation despite clear evidence, I gues I'm wasting my time pointing that out either.

I am not disputing for a minute that less able bodied people will find it more difficult to find suitable employment, but that is not a reason not to try where people are capable of carrying out some useful work. I see this as fairness to those who genuinely cannot by ensuring there is more in the budget to give them a decent life.

Try walking a mile in my shoes before spouting sweeping statements.

also find it quite unpalateable that there is ample money to go and drop bombs on people, and to give MP's pay rises/pay expenses for second homes (IMHO they should stay in travel inns etc if they have to be in London for meetings, or move to their constituencies

MPs are paid fairly similarly to other people carrying out highly responsible/professional/managerial work.

Your proposals would mean that only well-off people without families could be MPs. Or people who were happy to live in Travel Lodges away from their children during the week. So not many women, then.

Actually YoungGirl I grew up in a mining village - sorry, ex-mining village - and saw not only my home town but pretty much the entire region completely fucked over by Thatcher, so no doe-eyed middle class naivety here.

I come from a very rough background and area. Yes I know some people abuse welfare systems. But I have also seen real poverty and people with disabilities who get very little as they are not articulate enough to get what they are entitled to.

That's one of the more persistent myths, Brecon. That people in the ESA WRAG have been found fit to work.

They haven't.

If they'd been found fit to work, they wouldn't receive any ESA at all.

People are put in the WRAG when the DWP agree are unable to work, but their level of disability/sickness is only so far below the threshold. They are deemed to be preparing for being able to work in the future when their condition improves.

At one point, people were being put in the WRAG solely on level, regardless of whether improvement was actually possible. I don't know if that ridiculous state of affairs has now changed.

People who were found fit to work, even if needing support to do so, were signed off ESA altogether and told to apply for JobSeekers Allowance. Some were then refused this as... not being fit to work. Neat, eh?

Yes I know someone who has been in and out of hospital for psychosis who is on the ESA group. Maybe she will be able to work in the future. But she certainly can not yet. Only positive is she seems to be getting a bit more help for her recurrent psychosis.

I don't believe that the DWP has the first fucking idea about the proportion of people cheating the system. I take all government statistics with a rather large pinch of salt, like most sensible people.

I do believe that we need to get a firm grip on spending. As I said upthread, demographics alone threaten our welfare state and electing a Labour government to hose other people's money at their pet projects will not change a thing. Welfare spending at current levels is economically unsustainable and Osborne is right to make these difficult calls, despite all the predictable chest-beating and wailing on the left.

Nothing ever stopped disabled people returning to work under the previous system. In fact, we were able to get assistance applying for jobs and returning to work for the first year.
Not only that, but if our health deteriorated again we could return to the same benefit with no penalty for up to one year.

That support has been withdrawn. Its too expensive and Tories want austerity.

YoungGirlGrowingOld
despite all the predictable chest-beating and wailing

Do you know people are dying after having their benefits sanctioned? That is what you support.
There is a petition to force the govt to publish the figures, they refuse to do so.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/06/11/statistics-refused-benefits-death_n_7561918.html

@PageStillNotFound404 Well said.

Osborne is right to make these difficult calls, despite all the predictable chest-beating and wailing on the left

Well best I just disappear now then.

DH will then be able to return to his 6 figure salary.

DC won't have me around anymore but at least I will be one less difficult call for Osborne to make.

I'm going to hide this thread soon. Some haven't got the faintest idea what it is like to live with illness or disability.