To feel envious of people who grew up in non abusive homes with loving parents and therefore have good self esteem?

[SpeckledLily]

I've namechanged as I know it is not good to be envious but I can't help it.

My parents were very emotionally and physically abusive when I was a child; both narcissists with anger issues with my sister as the golden child. I was hit, called names, told I was useless, and just generally lived in fear. I was not really allowed friends as a)I was told that they would one day find out what I was really like and would not want to know me and b)because my parents used to go mad if I was friendly with someone and say I was disloyal to the family etc and they wouldn't talk to me for days if I'd been to a friend's house. It was weird, they wanted to crush me but didn't want anyone else to 'have' me.

I was very badly bullied all through high school, after we moved areas and I left my childhood friends behind. I was probably bullied for being weird. I also was conscious of the things my parents told me so if someone did want to be my friend then I couldn't quite commit to being a total, proper friend, for fear of what my parents might say or do. So therefore I never had a chance to develop that proper strong network of friends, and have struggled all of my life to make and maintain friendships. I feel so envious of people who have a huge core of solid, good friends that they've known since childhood.

I also feel envious of those that had decent, loving parents who brought them up to have good self esteem. I am now non contact with my parents and sister, and have had counselling but being realistic, I am never going to have normal, healthy self esteem that someone who has grown up in a rock solid loving home and been allowed to be themselves has. I will just have to make do with the self esteem that I have managed to develop for myself and accept the fact that I will always struggle with friendships.

AIBU to feel like this? Has anyone had similar experiences?

From what I understand BPD can be linked to childhood trauma-as can many mental health issues.
There can also be other, possibly biological, factors involved. Often its a combination of factors. It is an emotion regulation difficulty-not a character flaw. Severity varies a lot and an hour a week therapy could be invaluable to some people.

Saying that there are things that can help isn't the same as blaming people for not trying hard enough or failing to engage with services.

Sadly mental health services are under-funded but there are treatments that have been researched and found to be helpful.

I find goddesses post more inspiring than the "abandon hope" angle.

That doesn't mean I don't acknowledge how hard it is.

Its hard not to feel envious OP but we often don't know the details of other people's childhoods and they may appear more confident than they are.

Google "Mindful self-compassion" it may help you

I always call it as I see it, Bill, and from the OP's post there's no reason to suppose that she is sociopathic or that she finds it "impossible to build relationships with other people".

Indeed, the OP refers to herself as having "to make do with the self esteem" that she has "managed to develop" for herself and my intention was merely to encourage her to see that she can build on her already remarkable achievement to a point where, while she may sometimes feel wistful that a happy childhood was denied her, she no longer envies those who were more fortunate in this regard than herself.

That said, I agree with much of what you say but I must take issue with your mention of "this sense of shame some people think abuse survivors should have" as I see no evidence of it on this thread, nor do I take the view that survivors of abuse should have cause to feel ashamed of what has happened to them at the hands of others as it is demonstrably not their fault they were victimised, in some cases by abuse that has been handed down through generations.

As you've said, "An hour a week having a chat in a psychiatric clinic" is highly unlikely to "magically erase 16 years of being told you're a worthless piece of shit and having your head kicked in every Friday night", but a self-help programme tailored to the needs of the individual supplemented with other therapies can begin to address and resolve issues that cause non-socio/psychopathic minds to become conflicted and, by default, may cause sufferers to withdraw into themselves or come into conflict with others.

Fwiw, as those who have recovered from horrendous experiences and addictions of various kinds can affirm, 'inner confidence' is a quality that can only be acquired through achievement and I hope that you are able to experience sufficient peace of mind to draw on the inner confidence that you have achieved through your transition from victim to survivor.

YANBU. Every child has the right to be loved and valued. I'm sorry you didn't have this growing up and I know I'd be envious too. More like full blown green-eyed monster.

Bill
I get an overwhelming sense of anger from your posts. However, I don't fully agree with you. I don't think your future is necessarily fixed by your childhood experiences nor your personality. I am in the glimmer of hope camp. Some people can move forward and put their experiences in a context that allows them to develop their own personality in a way they are comfortable with. I accept that not everyone can but I don't think we should put the OP off trying when none of us can say for certain what the results will be.

I can completely understand this. I had a tough time with one parent (the other one died) who is a total narcissist and while not an alcoholic any more, still has issues which affect the whole family.

I do my best at acting like I have self esteem but the cracks are still there. They are just for me to see and I am infinitely better than I was at 20, and far far more healthier mentally than my poor brother who struggles a lot with his anger. I never had therapy and I don't want it - I can never change my parent, no amount of trying will do that, I just have to accept that everything I was ever told was bollox, change my responses to the bad memories and from my own experiences, especially motherhood, I now feel I am mending.

Good luck OP. You may not ever totally "recover" but things can always be better than they are now.

I grew up with two wonderful parents who loved each other and treated me well. My self esteem is still absolutely shit. Not everything can be blamed on your parents.

Not your issues maybe midnite but are you really suggesting that the OP's abusive childhood wasn't an important or in fact the main factor in her lack of self esteem?

I don't think Midnite was suggesting that at all. she/he was indicating (as others have done) that the classically supportive childhood does not equate auto with uncompromised self-esteem in adulthood. Nothing specifically about the OP as far as I see.

FFS, nobody, including me, ever said that you can't recover from it or that certain things can't help. But a lot of people were saying 'just get over it' or 'oh just have a bit of therapy, you'll be fine'.

It's not that simple, not least because with the state of our mental health services the type of help that best deals with these problems is not available.

I've worked in NHS adult mental health services and in most areas it's a matter of people really only getting any sort of intensive treatment if they are an immediate and absolute danger to themselves or other people (and sometimes not even then). People suffering from chronic but not immediately urgent conditions barely even register with MH services let alone get intensive help. And yes, that does make me angry as it happens. And people who assume that people haven't got help because they just haven't asked make me angry too. You wouldn't tell someone with cancer that their cancer wasn't a problem because a treatment they couldn't have was available to someone else with more money would you? And even the therapies that are available: no reputable psychiatrist or therapist would ever claim that they could repair all the damage done or cure someone. They're more about minimising problems in people's day to day lives rather than fixing them as a person.

And yes, for a lot of people the damage is irreparable. I've changed enough of their files to 'deceased' to know that.

Oh no pan I understand what she said, I just don't know why she said it on a thread from someone who's struggling with self esteem after a childhood full of abuse. I'd have thought the thing to do on this thread was to offer sympathy and experiences that are relevant to the OP's problem. Is she unreasonable to envy people who "grew up in non abusive homes with loving parents and therefore have good self esteem"? Yes, I would say yes. Does the fact that there are people who lived in happy households and have low esteem have any bearing on that? I would say no.

I grew up in a home with very loving parents but my self-esteem is very low and always has been, not because of my wonderful parents but because of situations and other people.

Bill
"But a lot of people were saying 'just get over it' or 'oh just have a bit of therapy, you'll be fine'."

People aren't saying that at all. I feel like I am reading a different thread to you. You are dismissing other people's contributions out of hand even when they are talking about having found a way to deal with the aftermath of a bad childhood. Nobody is saying it is easy, people are just saying it can be possible for some people, with support, to move on and build their self esteem.

Yes, I fully accept that there are issues with accessing that support.

Some brilliant posts on here.

Irrationally I guess, and as someone who struggles with envy around other people's peaceful loving upbringings, I wish people who had lovely childhoods would express their thoughts elsewhere. To be brutal, you've no idea what it's like to go through, nor gain even the most fragile sense of recovery from. I do appreciate the empathy shown, quite genuinely.

You need to get over it though. For your own mental health.

^YANBU, but you have to deal with this.
There is no such thing as a perfect home or childhood, I strongly recommend cognitive behaviour therapy and assertiveness training.^

You have a choice now about how you face the world and how you feel about yourself

Well I used to have very poor self esteem but after a lot of therapy and work on myself I now have good self esteem so YABU to say that you are never going to have normal healthy self esteem. It may not have been given to you on a plate but it is still there for the taking.

you didn't choose your upbringing but you can, with the right support, choose how you now respond to it

you can develop healthy self esteem through hard work with the right help

That's just the first page! I recognise that some of these are kindly meant and well intentioned, I recognise that in some cases they are right and it will help people. But there's still the implication there that if people who've been abused would just work a bit harder and get this elusive 'right support' they will suddenly be free!

Bill
Not one of those quotations are saying "just get over it" or "just have a bit of therapy, you'll be fine"

People talk about hard work and a lot of therapy. You are dismissing the experiences of people who have dealt with similar issues and have found a way to get past the problems of their childhood. I understand you are saying that nobody should judge or blame a person who can't find a way past those problems but you are trivialising the stories of those who have (or who are still a work in progress).

Surely the answer is in the middle, the OP comparing her childhood to others isn't going to make her feel better so if she can find a way not to do that, it would be a good thing. However, nobody should underestimate how hard it is to do that especially when access to support is so limited.

And....no-one relies on 'therapy' in total. It's the bits inbetween sessions where the successes are made. That's why it's called 'hard work'. No we are not lifting heavy items or mining a seam. But considering the ramifications of a past, realising what's gone wrong for you and how things will continue to go wrong for you unless you change is bloody hard work. And takes place away from formal sessions usually - when you have time to think.

Bill - you appear to be presenting this as if there is no hope and what little there is is undermined by funding of MH by the govt. This isn't it at all imo. It's emotional well-being well before diagnosable MH issues, where supportive friends and family sometimes, or a counseller sometimes, or under your own steam, you make things better for yourself than they would otherwise be. GP referrals, specialist groups, on-line support, reading/listening to radio/tv items, self-reflection etc. Not silver bullets no, but useful tools.
Interestingly, only one-third of people who commit suicide have any history with MH services.

There are a million things to envy in other people.
What's the point?
Surely it's not healthy to become obsessed with it all?

Do you think that there are people who are envious of you for a million reasons?
I bet there are...

Ahem. You need to get over it though. For your own mental health. That's all that post said.

As for the other posts, I didn't trivialise their experiences. I just pointed out that they (and other posts) unequivocally said, go and get therapy, that and hard work will make you better. It might be true for a lot of cases, but there are plenty where it's simply not true. The damage just goes too deep. For a start a lot of the conditions abuse survivors suffer from make it very, very hard for them to engage with the support (if any is) that is available and keep up that support.

Have you looked at the outcomes for care leavers? They're appalling. But I suppose they just didn't work hard enough or do enough positive thinking.

OP, YANBU. I often feel the same and somewhat 'cast adrift', especially in social situations. My self esteem is thin, wobbly and often a little transparent to say the least.

Billsykesdog - , and for you. I empathise entirely

where supportive friends and family sometimes, or a counseller sometimes, or under your own steam, you make things better for yourself than they would otherwise be

You have literally no idea do you? Did you read the OPs post? Almost all of these these people don't have any supportive family. Many, many of these people will have been abused to the point where they cannot build functioning relationships they don't have a supportive circle of friends.

It's emotional well-being well before diagnosable MH issues

That is absolutely clueless. They are children when this is happening to them and incapable of taking responsibility for their emotional well being. That's what parents are for, and if they abuse you rather than care for your emotional well being then you're absolutely screwed. In most cases the damage that will eventually cause MH issues is done before anybody outside the family will even know what's happening. I suppose it's all these irresponsible little toddlers and 7 year olds not taking responsibility for their own well being before they get damaged. Jesus.

Bill
What was it - I assumed it was the envy not the abuse. Envy tends only to hurt the person experiencing it. Envy doesn't affect her abusive parents.

Your last sentence is trite and insulting to everyone who has posted in good faith on this thread.

x post
I mean this sentence
"But I suppose they just didn't work hard enough or do enough positive thinking."

Bollocks Chaz. What's insulting is people on this thread who are adamant that the effects of abuse are so superficial they can be erased just by talking about it.

I would suggest the vast majority of the people insisting this have very little real experience of dealing with people who've survived abuse.

Sorry Bill you are flinging around your undermining, well cut and pasted comments and slight insults a bit too much for reasonableness. Your cocktail of pessimism and anger, and an entire unwillingness to read/listen to anyone else at all (with an edge of bullying) tells me you are stuck.

Bill
The vast majority of people on this thread including myself have experienced abuse. That is why I find your posts extreme. Basically, you are telling me that my experience is not valid because it is not the same as other abuse sufferers.