to say don't go and get signed off with stress

[writingonthewall]

I see this all the time on MN

OP: there's been a death in the family, I'm doing fine but need time off work to organise the funeral/comfort DH. work will only give me 3 days compassionate leave, after that I have to take holiday or unpaid leave

everyone else: go to your GP and get signed off with stress.

before I get flamed, I am a GP and I fully understand that bereavement hits different people in different ways. I sometimes do sign people off work after a bereavement - if you can't stand up for crying, then you can't work. And whilst there is no hierarchy of grief, as a general rule losing a child is very very traumatic whilst losing a parent is something that you do expect to happen at some point. So no problems with signing certificates for genuine mental health problems post bereavement.

What I do object to is this "get signed off with stress" when you aren't ill.

Do people not realise that, firstly, you are asking the GP to commit fraud. Secondly general practice is buckling. We are under resourced (all practices in one area I know are about to lose 20-25% of their funding) and even if we had the money, there are no GPs to recruit. And it's going to get worse if the new juniors contract doesn't get sorted out.

Every appointment taken up with a medicalisation of normal life, is an appointment that someone who is ill can't have and a potential delay in the diagnosis of someone else's cancer or other serious condition.

so please. see your GP if you are ill - physically or mentally. But think before you do and don't involve us in your battles with your employer and your general normal life events. Being sad after a bereavement is normal. The treatment is to talk about the person you have lost, cry a bit, and take care of yourself. It isn't to rush to the doctor for a medical cure.

"Losing a parent is to be expected" what do you mean regarding that, grief and work? That you don't need time off work if you lose a patent because it's to be "expected"?

And as for the poster who said "people get old they die" and can't understand anyone taking 4 months off for the loss of a parent, what s cold unfeeling comment to make. I don't understand anyone who thinks they can measure emotions in someone else based on their own mind, it's the basic premise of empathy to understand that everyone has a different mind and different experiences.

What are people meant to do if they have some kind of family crisis like a sick child. One of my colleaugues has a small child who has just been diagnosed with cancer and she currently signed off sick and likely to be so for months on end. The last thing she needs is the financial worry of losing her pay. People in my work place stay off for 4-6 months on average for the loss of a parent . During that time off sick on full pay they also accrue holidays etc. they then come back on 'phased return' working half shifts for a few weeks.

" you don't need time off work if you lose a patent because it's to be "expected""
You may well need time off. If you are depressed or stressed you are sick and will be signed off as such. If you are not depressed or stressed (or ill in some other way) then you should not be signed off as sick. You may well need the time off. You surely should not have a sick note unless you are sick.

YANBU - I agree with what the OP says and I have seen posters suggesting OPs go and get signed off. However, it's a really tricky subject. Everyone deals with grief differently. I've seen threads on miscarriage where people have had weeks off work for early miscarriages.

Oh I get that the op means a difference between those who actually do need a sick note but tbh I think those who are going to go to the gp and ask for a sick note because they have stubbed their toe are not likely to read this thread and think I won't bother because they are usually entitled people who do not care about the effect they have on the system. Where as those who might need it genuinely need it might be put off.

There are people wasting the nhs system who need dealing with well before this!

This sort of thing worries me so much. I can't cope with anything. I will be devastated when my rabbits die. I am off work long term with mental health problems, so that obviously has a lot to do with it, but how the hell will I ever get back to work? Some people have a lot to deal with and the grief or stress or whatever might be the tip of the iceberg. God, I want to give up living.

and before anyoe says anything, i used to do the pretending everythings fine stiff upper lip thing and then one day i couldnt anymore

Babyroobs

People in my work place stay off for 4-6 months on average for the loss of a parent

I'm curious, is it a private company or not? (I'm guessing it's not )

I am with Adrift too, both my parents are ill, one is terminal but it will absolutely floor me when they die.

I work in an NHS facility / unit. To be honest it's quite usual for people to be off months for stress/ depression / bereavement. I think because we deal with death very day , my employers are probably more understandingand I'm very grateful for that. It's hard to deal with someone else's relative dying when you have just lost a close relative yourself. It's possibly a bit different if you wor in an office or factory . At work I had to take a deceased person to the mortuary the other day on my first shift back after losing my lovely fil suddenly last week. It was very hard knowing that my lovely fil was also lying in a mortuary somewhere. I can't imagine I could have done that if it was my mum or dad who had just died. I'm just sharing this so people can understand why my workplace might allow 4-6 months off after a bereavment.

Oh I'm glad you're not my gp. Have you ever lost anyone close to you Op?

I was crippled by the stres of my mum being terminally ill (it was actually better once she passed). Thankfully my gp realised I couldn't cope with work, family life and her dying and signed me off sick

At my work, people generally take a week or two off after the death of a parent (I took a week each time). We are allowed to use sick time for this, no note needed.

People come back, and occasionally folks get teary, and we all know why and it is just okay for them to be teary.

Do you think the British tendency towards stoicism is part of the problem? It is not a disaster if someone cries at work or mentions being sad during lunch. People are generally quite comfortable hearing it and giving support/hugs.

Is it more stigmatizing to tear up at work in the UK?

I just think that it is unrealistic to expect to stay away from work until one is feeling much better, feeling better enough to function okay at work has been enough for me and my coworkers.

Babyroobs. I'm really shocked that people working for the NHS would take that much time off for a bereavement. It shouldn't be the 'normal' thing to do although I understand there might be a few individual cases where it's appropriate.

I'm surprised it's allowed. It must cost the NHS a fortune that it hasn't got

You say "I am a GP and I fully understand ...."

But tbh it doesn't sound like you fully do to me.

I'm not sure how advisable it is to post wearing your GP hat on such an important issue.

My feeling is if a few more days or a week is going to help someone cope at a difficult time for whatever reason, but generally involving a degree of stress and grief, then I feel if I were in your shoes I would be happy to help where I could.

A death of a child, though, that would be another thing altogether. I can't even bear to imagine that scenario.

Dealing with feeling teary at work is probably easier if you have a quiet office based job than a public facing role.

'Where people have had weeks off work for early miscarriages"

I had 3 weeks of work for a very traumatic miscarriage at 12 weeks. I had to have a D and C. However, it was the emotional side that I struggled with. I literally couldn't stop crying, I just couldn't stop. Anti depressants sorted it, but I think it needs realising that all people deal with and process things differently.

If the anti depressants hadn't worked, I done know how long I would have been off. I just couldn't function at all.

Pitiless I agree with your post. I went back to work a couple of days after a bereavement even though I was still a bit teary. Being teary really didn't effect my ability to work although I imagine I wasn't as efficient as usual. I was lucky in that my collegues were all lovely and supportive and definitely weren't the type to feel awkward if I had a wee cry. I can't imagine sitting at home doing nothing.

I know everyone is different though.

My entire life, I have struggled with watching my father's alcoholism and the abuse that came out of it.

When he dies, I might be fine. I might even be relieved. Or maybe all the holding in of all the years of extreme pain will rush out and I'll collapse. Who knows? One thing's for sure, though, I'd hope to meet with a bit more compassion than "losing a parent is to be expected, get over it".

I'm a doctor too (Paeds) and I understand the pressure, overwork, underfunding, time wasting etc.

The last time I did GP was on placement at med school so long time ago and I haven't had your day to day experience but I remember very clearly that mental health and general struggles with life formed a large proportion of the workload. some of these things seemed trivial to an outsider - but I wasn't living those peoples experience. I think it's hard to sometimes remember that people have individual struggles that you can't completely empathise with but they may legitamely need your help and time off work. Grief is so personal and, even with an expected life event like the death of a parent or terminally ill spouse etc., the pain and legitimate stress can be related to the pain of looking after the deceased before death, family stuff thrown up by the death, loneliness, financial issues...

Paeds a and e often lead to us seeing children who weren't "accident or emergency" sick. But we knew this because

• we'd been studying health and illness for ten years or more
• we had a degree of removal from the patient

And sometimes the parents were right - they're an expert in their own individual child; similarly most patients are experts in what they can and can't cope with. Obviously some people just take the piss, but how would we know until they're in the chair and we speak to them?

The system is crap, it's buckling, but some people need help to recover from bereavement on their own timescale and we need to listen

Fools - Yes I'm sure it does cost the NHS a fortune if my workplace is anything to go by. I have lost my dm and both Pil's in the past five years, all of them very suddenly. I took 3 weeks off when my dm died and no time with mil or fil. I actually felt better getting back to normality when my dm died and also sadly needed to go back to work financially as I had 3 small children and even though I would have got basic pay, almost a third of my wages is made up of unsocial hours enhancements which I obviously wouldn't get so we couldn't really afford for me to be off much longer. I have had a colleauge who took weeks off after her best friend died and my work also allowed this .

'A death of a child, though, that would be another thing altogether. I can't even bear to imagine that scenario.'

It's unbelievably shit.

The OP never said people should just chunter on if they are too ill to function at work.

Squiggle I suppose what if it happens one year down the line. You can't be signed off until the grief has gone.

Grief never goes. You just get better at carrying it around with you.

And that's the whole point. The odds of finding yourself crying in the toilets at work a year down the line are far less if you have been facilitated in grieving openly and appropriately soon after someone's death. When you're given the chance to get used to carrying that grief around with you, it's less likely to sideswipe you later. So rather than finding yourself in the toilets crying at work (a situation where you're not in control), you can acknowledge the emotions you're feeling, but decide to go with them later in a more appropriate place. It's about dealing with grief appropriately, but also not having unrealistic expectations of people.

When grief is new, it is raw, and people are vulnerable. Expecting people to ignore that vulnerability, or confine it to the toilets at work, forces people to ignore their emotions, and that just isn't healthy. Time is most definitely a healer, but only when it is time that is used to come to terms with the reality of the situation. I firmly believe that when somebody dies we have a certain number of tears we have to cry, for them, and for us. Allowing somebody cry those tears and deal with the associated emotions at their own pace and in their own time is the only way to deal with grief, and putting social norms, and stiff upper lips is of no benefit to anyone, employee or employer.

My Sil and Bil are GP's. So I have a little understanding of where the OP is coming from.

But what bothers me about this post, is just one person reading this, thinks their GP might not be understanding about their grief. And so keeps it hidden, afraid to ask for help when it's needed.

Everyone, reacts differently to grief as is, people's relationships to those that have died are vastly different. A grandparent might be like a parent, even a main care giver. I lived my grandmother all my life. I think I had a few days off when she died.

There shouldn't be any need for a stiff upper lip. Why should you?

There are indeed a lot of time wasters at GP's. But I feel that damage could have been done by those who have a genuine need and don't ask because of of this post.

Thank you for remaining me that my parents will die at some point. I shall prepare myself accordingly.