AIBU to think that 4yo DD is a pain in the arse??

[BusyHomemaker]

I love her to bits, that goes without saying but recently DP and I feel like we are constantly telling her off. She's full-time at nursery and we're out of the house between 7:40am and 5:50pm and it's so infuriating that she's so naughty at home... And an angel at nursery! She's so kind and polite at nursery and with her grandparents but at home she's disrespectful, laughs when we try to discipline her and is insincere when she says sorry.

Neither of us want to fill what little time we spend together by constantly telling off DD and I just don't think it's normal for a child to be so naughty :( It's almost like she just can't help herself... She knows the rules!

Her behaviour has become annoying, frustrating and tedious. She can also be quite manipulatuve, for example, crying as soon as she's asked to do something or pretending she's hurt herself when she's being told off. Are all children like this??

Of course, DD has some absolutely lovely traits and can be incredibly loving. She's intelligent, creative, has a fabulous imagination, takes a keen interest in the world around her and plays nicely with other children. She can be incredibly conscientious and used to hate being told off, avoiding it as much as possible.

Can somebody wise please suggest some tips for how to discipline a bright, witty four year old... Who may have been slightly spoilt at times in the past?!

3.5 years with mummy all the time, now all day without you! That's tough at 4. Lots of positive attention and relaxed weekends to unwind. Transitions are hard for little ones.

She needs downtime. I'd do nothing on Sundays, let her chill at home and build dens and watch telly. Just like adults, children don't need to be 'doing something' 24 hours a day. Just sit down with her, read together, show her your presence and try to ignore the behaviour you don't like and praise her for everything positive. I have a nearly 5 year old spirited dd but would never call her naughty, I don't like that word.

I agree on the downtime - all kids need it, not just 4 yos. Just do one thing at the weekend, and have the rest of the time for not much... My kids play out or have friends here a lot at weekends and I count that as downtime too, and going for walks and bike rides spontaneously or DC coming with you to get a couple of items items from the shops/ supermarket (not a big weekly shop or hours and hours in town/ mall) is all low key downtime stuff - it doesn't have to be nuclear family locking yourself away from the world - but avoid scheduled activities/ classes and only do one "outing" type thing (anything with a longer drive/ journey or entailing being out all day) per fortnight/ month...

She might be struggling with the transition from you being at home to being at nursery. My son who is two was like this after I'd been in hospital for a mere week, but he was my absolute pet and literally always at my side so he was traumatized and insecure for a couple of months.

That does seem a long day, both in terms of lack of downtime but also sleep.
Is she able to get enough sleep do you think? My nearly four yr old starts going up to bed at 6.15pm, which wouldn't happen if he only got in from nursery at 5.50pm.

I'm guessing you can't shorten her day at all, by having your working hours shift an hour earlier, DP drops her at nursery while you go to work and you then pick her up earlier for example?

She is probably exhausted.
She is probably deeply frustrated. She's like a caged animal at nursery. She can't go off to her room and play, she can't flake on the sofa when she wants to, she can't bloody do anything without other children around her, noise, nursery staff in her face.
At home she is probably just so relieved to be in her own environment, that she goes a bit batty!

Just be gentle with her and maybe let her be more than you probably otherwise would. She has it full on for ten hours a day five days a week. Make home as chilled,moving and relaxed as possible. And that might mean letting things slide a bit.

O come on if you cannot refer to your kid on mumsnet as a PITA without being judged the world has gone mad. My kids are good at school and everywhere else but home, especially the younger one and I have always worked part time and been around for nearly all school pick ups (the full time thing makes no difference). They say it is a back handed compliment but it sure as hell doesn't feel like one. I have recently bought myself a copy of "How to talk so kids will listen", just have to start reading it. Some days at home living with three males (DH, DS1 (8) and DS2(6) I feel as if I have anal fissures and can barely sit down lol. Agree with the pick your battles thing.

All 4 year olds can be an absolute pain in the arse OP - it's what they do best ) but honestly OP I would look at changing your childcare if you work FT.

I know lots of working parents and lots use nursery very successfully, but not FT like you are. Lovely busy nursery environment for up to 3 full days a week -fine. Lovely busy nursery environment for 10 hour stints, 5 days a week - not fine IMO. Too much. I don't think I know any FT working parents who have used nursery FT, for the simple reason that it's too much for many children. It's not a home environment and it can't offer down time in the way a home environment can.

And think about it, your DD has been with you in a home environment for 3.5 years? And suddenly flung into full time nursery where she (in her mind anyway) has to behave perfectly for what she will see as teachers all the time? It's too much, too long, too exhausting.

Yes all 4yo have their hugely irritating moments but your DD's are most likely exacerbated by exhaustion.

Get a FT nanny, or a childminder. Put her back in the home environment with a 1-1 carer and just do morning preschool or something. Look at it this way, you're going to have to change her childcare in the next year or so anyway because of school.

It won't solve all the problems of course because you still have to work, she'll still act up for your attention, and she'll still be 4 But it will reduce her exhaustion and her need to be perfect child for nursery teachers for 50+ hours a week.

We have the same with DS who is nearly 5. He's at a childminder before school from 8am 4 days a week, then at a childminder after school until 5pm 3 days a week. School holidays are a mixture of childminder, me/DH and my parents. We have tantrums in the morning before school and usually in the evening too.

We don't discipline him as he's just letting off steam; he's tired, grumpy and fed up. It's always worse close to the school holidays as he's even more tired. We try to distract him with a snack and a cuddle, or playing a game. Sometimes he just needs time to play in his room on his own.

I find it hard sometimes, I feel like everyone else is getting the best of him and we're left with the grumpy, whingy bits. It's not his fault though, although I confess that sometimes I do get cross when the whinging goes on and on.

We try to keep weekends free if we can, he needs time to chill in his pjs and not be rushed around. We make the time we do have off work as much about him as we can. I've got today and tomorrow off work so we've had a lazy morning so far, his friend is coming to play this morning and then we're going to see my parents this afternoon. Tomorrow he's got another friend coming to play in the morning and then nothing planned for the afternoon. Nothing planned for Saturday either.

I think the poor girl wants her mum, what are you planning to do when she starts school? Is there no way you can work from home/cut down a day a week until then? 5 days a week at nursery is such a lot, my little boy is exhausted after 2

She's probably just letting off some steam and being a normal 4 year old.

Working FT is not a problem, so don't let anyone make you feel guilty. My DD acted like a stroppy teen when she was 4, she's now 5 and has mainly grown out of it just as yours will do. Don't beat yourself up, you're doing you best and she loves you and knows you love her too.

It's normal behavior for her age. She's had a long day, she's tired and you are asking her to do more things like eat properly, brush her teeth, put away her toys, etc. I find that my 4,5yo does better if I can forget about everything that needs doing and concentrate on her. If she is shattered we just sit and cuddle quietly, if she's grumpy I ask her if she has run out of cuddles and kisses and needs topping up and that usually works to help us get over the hump. If she's still got a bit of energy we spend 20 minutes of special mother/daughter time. During this time all activities are led by her, it is quite important that she takes the lead and chooses what you will be doing together. Doing things for her benefit, like bath time, that she has not directly chosen don't count as part of this special time.

I think you'lol find that if you can give her more attention in a positive setting the negative behavior will stop all by itself.

She is probably overstimulated and cranky when she gets home its a long day for her thats not a dig btw concentrate on the positive dont expect to much from her in the evening and pick the 1 thing you wont tolerate behaviour wise work on that and let the rest go.whether they are at home or nursery all day evenings are always going to be hard ime

Sounds normal to me. Don't sweat the small stuff, lots of cuddles, praise when she does something right. Involve her in what your doing. e.g. if you want her to tidy up, make it a game and do it with her. If she wants you to play when you have to cook, get her choppping mushrooms with a blunt knife. A four year old can pair socks, pile up vests etc.

Mine improved drastically about age 6. The only rules we have are everybody has to wash and brush teeth, food is eaten at the table, everybody tidys up occasionally (we used to have a session on Saturday morning where everybody helped). Then I just explain - if you do that, this will happen, if there were anything out of the ordinary.

Often it seems the answer is to try and instill discipline after every misdemeanour. I had much more success with sympathy - are you tired, come and lie down here with me for a bit. Are you bored - come and help me with this. If it's not wanting to go to bed and kicking up a fuss, just read lots with her at bedtime. They grow out of wanting you to and eventually they read by themselves.

But largely, this is what they do at age 4. It carries on a bit whilst they get used to school. Then it calms down.

Let her have time to relax at the weekends. It really helps if you adjust to their level of tiredness. When DS wasn't at nursery, we did lots of classes eg football, dancing, etc. Then when we upped his hours at nursery we cut back on everything else because he was just too tired. Cuddling on the sofa watching a film or doing some colouring in/ baking is a nice way for you all to wind down.

Do you and DP have the same approach to her? I notice you seemed to specifically mention her being cheeky to your DP. I wouldn't read too much in to that. Children's allegiances shift with the wind.

But what good would stopping full time nursery do? Surely she is due to start full time school in September? or sooner?
Unfortunately this is just what 4yr olds are like - mine is the same. Lovely some times and a little horror other times. I try to be consistent and fair but also make sure I follow through with discipline and early nights are a must! Weekends are better, evenings are a write-off!

OP, you've got your DD in nursery 3.5 days and with your partner and dad for another 1.5 days of the 5 days you work. Its a juggling act and well done for doing what you think is best. At the end of the day, all of us as mum's make decisions based on our own circumstances. I'm a SAHM and the decisions we make to be SAHM, work FT or PT are rarely easy. Don't feel bad for those decisions.
Re the behaviour, I do think there needs to be a multi-approach to it. Firstly understand the behaviour, many have pointed out that your DD is probably tired, wanting mummy and also acting out in the knowledge that regardless of what she does mummy always loves her.

I'd also consider if she needs food - my daughter when I collected her after school at 3pm could be a nightmare but after a quick bit of toast or packet of quavers or whatever I had to hand would settle into a more manageable child. The power of food can be amazing. I know the temptation is to say no, its almost dinner time, you won't eat your dinner. But do try it for a few days, see if it makes a difference.

Also, is there a day or days where she is worse than others. If so what happens those days (is it an outdoor day at nursery, is it the day with grandad, or a particular care worker who does specific activities that she does or doesn't like)

Once you understand where the behaviour is coming from you can try to adapt to deal with it (give food, be more prepared on those days, change the time of swimming to earlier/later etc)

Speak to her. Praise her, tell her what a big girl she is getting, all grown up and understands what it is to be good, naughty. Try to get her to explain why she behaves a certain way. There is an episode of Wooly and Tig where Tig is very badly behaved because she is tired. Its a great springboard for the conversation I found.

I definately agree with the others that unstructured time at the weekend is vital. I know some people find a need to be out the whole time, letting kids run around the park and for some kids this is absolutely needed. But it doesn't work for all, it doesn't work for me. We tend to stay in jammies till late, I let the kids build train tracks or duplo villages, paint at the kitchen table, get the playdough out etc. Involve her in the household stuff - let her 'wash' the dishes at the sink (yes you'll have to put them in the dishwasher after anyway!), sort the colours of laundry. It will take you longer but it will help you reconnect with her and get back that feeling of not constantly saying 'no' or yelling at her for doing wrong.

Once you manage to reset then you can get to a point where she knows its not acceptable to act out because she is tired. She will still do it, but she'll start to understand what is happening, why and be able to articulate it with you. My daughter at 6 will now just crumple with me sometimes and say 'I'm grumpy because I'm tired....." to which the response is, that's ok, we can deal with that, lets get jammies and the snuggly blanket and have a mummy snuggle.

Finally someone mentioned about the pebble idea and I do a similar thing, we have a little wall ornament with pegs and the kids little named shaped hang on them - there is superstar, oops and oh dear. They start every day on superstar, for minor issues like not listening, or doing as told, they go to oops. If they are really naughty, like hitting each other, throwing things they go straight to oh dear. At the end of the day if they land on superstar a cotton wool ball goes in their jar, for oops nothing happens, for oh dear they lose a cotton wool. Obviously they can move up the chart as well for good behaviour after a naughty even earlier in the day. When the jar is full they get a treat, it might be a comic or book, a toy car or a specific sweet.

I hope you get it under control. Its not easy and you are right they can be a total PITA when they are like this. But you can get your lovely girl back, I promise xxxx

Well I have a four year old and I think it is a perfectly pleasant age. Equally, my 4 year old is very cute definitely on a par with 2 year old sweetness as she is able to express herself in a way that is very endearing. I have a nearly 9 year old so I realise that actually it's not very old at all. We are the other way around and don't do any after school clubs but do walk home for 2 miles which is a great bonding time as they both tell me all about their day. They're too tired to fight when they get home and I find rather than watch TV they want to play with their toys. We do most activities at the weekend.

Sounds normal to me - I have similar work & childcare pattern to you but I'm a teacher - I can assure you it doesn't suddenly turn into sweetness and light over half term! My DSis always used to say it is good to have assertive (stroppy) children as it means they will think/stand up for themselves later. No real advice (sorry) but your thread did cheer me up when DD was lying on the floor of Boots refusing to get up earlier .

Give her loads of positive attention and early nights