Or is the vicar? Noisy DCs in church

[drspouse]

Background so as not to drip feed, bear with me as this is horrendously long: we go to a fairly naice church in a large historic building, locally there is a sought after church secondary school but none of the church primary schools are over subscribed. We've been going to this church for 12 years and we have two DC, aged 4 and 1. The 4yo is being investigated for mild SN and has always, always been very "lively". DC2 is walking.

The church knows us. Current vicar has been there about as long as our DC1 and baptised both of them. Church has a side chapel which is open to the rest of the pews where there are baby/toddler toys, a mat to play on. One other family (who are new to the country and have a 10 month old) use this baby play area every week.

The 4yo goes to Sunday School in term time, one of us goes with him, as we take it in turns and it doesn't last the whole service, both of us get some time during the service actually in the church. He's just starting to be able to stay in for 10 minutes on his own. DC2 is still lively and, yes, noisy in the side chapel. The other regular family's baby isn't walking yet. When smaller, both he and our DC2 could be quietened by feeding or carrying around.

Because of the pressure for secondary admission, most of the families that come have primary aged children. I can think of a couple of other families who are regulars with young DCs e.g. one Sunday School teacher has an 18 month old but I think she is restrained sat with them on non-Sunday School weeks not in the side chapel.

Today was the first weekend of half term, no Sunday school, there were 2 other children at church apart from our "baby chapel" group, maybe 6 and 8, who were using a construction toy in the side chapel for part of the time. Our DC1 was running around, fairly quietly, but was also throwing a small, soft, non-dangerous teddy up and down and catching it or running to get it. Frankly the only way to stop this would have been to physically restrain DC1 leading to shouting, screaming and kicking. This could be seen from the main church. DC2 was very excited by this and was squeaking, and also as a new walker fell over 2 or 3 times and cried, and was cuddled, and then was quiet.

Half way through someone came in and said "did we know the other room was open, we could go there if we wished". We declined and said no, we wouldn't, because where would be the point in being at church if we were not in the church? we might as well stay home. This is the first time in four years anyone has said anything, and I was massively surprised. It's definitely not the first time we were noisy!

The vicar stopped me on the way out and repeated that something had to be done, that it was distracting, people had complained, and that it was "exciting the other children" (the ones quietly using a construction toy? or the 10 month old who was quiet?) I said that the answer was not for us to go out because there was no point in us going to church if we couldn't be IN church. He repeated that "something must be done".

How does your church run this? Can you give us any ideas for suggestions? We want to bring this up and make some constructive suggestions (though frankly if the church can't put up with noise, it can't put up with children, and it will be left with definitely nobody under 5 and probably nobody under 50).

The historic fabric means a glassed off area is not possible (and I'd feel massively excluded in an aquarium every week!). There's only one area out of the church where smaller children could play (so they couldn't run a creche at the same time as Sunday School). We'd also feel pretty excluded if we couldn't go on non-Sunday School weeks (which is probably 15-20 weeks of the year), and I wouldn't bother if we had to be in an area with "piped church", also. It's not a "praise band" church where listening through an audio or video link gets you the flavour of church, it's a trad but (we thought) friendly church with old fashioned liturgy.

or there's another child maybe with ASD who finds their nosie intolerable what then?

Excellent question.

(And the reason that everyone has to practise both tolerance and restraint. If everybody took the same approach as the OP - "I won't modify anything and all compromise attempts exclude me" , there would be no workable solution ever.)

Maybe that's easier for me to see and say because I have one extremely noise-sensitive DC with ASD and one DC with ASD who enjoys loud music, dancing etc, so we've had to learn the art of balancing needs.

So the hypothetical elderly lady, who may well have been attending the Church for a lot longer than 50 years, and may well only be socially connected through the Church (which is often overwhelmingly the case for elderly parishioners) they should be sidelined from the main community of the Church and shunted off into small services with little social element because parents are incapable of making reasonable compromises?

well at least you are all agreeing exclusion is wrong

Yup definitely reading a different thread

BillSykes

Not at all! Don't make a quarrel! The consensus seems to be - by and large - that everyone has to be reasonable, which involves having noisier times than some might like, and quieter times than others might like.

Let's not forget that the elderly lady probably enjoys seeing the children each week (as long as they don't make it impossible for her to hear the sermon) and may have a tiny cardigan constantly on her knitting needles for any new arrivals!

I used to go to church with my children but gave up taking them long ago. They just weren't welcome at all. I would give up an just not go anymore if I were you op, it's just not worth the stress and disapproval. You don't need church to keep faith.

oh whatever.

CBA. Sick of the sheer effort people put in on MN to make others feel or look bad.

that was not addressed to you fakename. you speak much sense

I don't see any consensus. I don't see any consensus at all.

Our parish priest is very understanding he often says that he likes seeing dc at mass as he knows that their parents are there to. Only once did our parish priest say anything about noisey dc when things got so loud with three or four families who were new to church (who I think we're looking for places at the school for their dc) sat at the back of the church (we don't have a glassed partition) without even try to control their dc. You couldn't hear yourself think let alone pray

I've said all the way through the thread there should be compromise! The only people who seem to be against that are the people who are insisting that all attempts at accommodations should come from the rest of the congregation and the OP is under no obligation to reciprocate in any way.

I would think a sensible option would be for the OP to take her children out during the sermon. None of them are listening to it or getting anything from it, the OP certainly isn't, she reads aloud to her children during the sermon.

In fact I would hazard a guess very few people are getting anything out of the sermon at the moment, especially not people who have hearing difficulties, and they are extremely common in churches due to the fact there are a lot of people who are elderly.

But apparently they don't matter.

I'm not hearing consensus either, there are views here which are diametrically opposed. Of course we should all be more understanding of everyone around us, but it's difficult to understand what's going on with the op other than expecting everything to revolve round her and her kids. If she is able to take steps to meet her vicar and congregation halfway, or at least show some signs of trying to respect other parishioners in the way she allows her kids to play/roam/make noise, then how can she expect thoughtfulness and understanding in return?

Coming late to the thread to offer support OP. Can't believe the judgemental posts of some! i take ds to my RC family mass every Sunday. And a lot of the time I end up going another time in the week if I want a peaceful service because Sunday mass often passes in a blur of noise, kids around the church getting up and down and asking random questions and playing loudly and shouting out and that is totally fine with me because I want my son to see that my church is an inclusive ones where children are valued and accepted. He generally behaves and sits down the front with his mates so I have no agenda here. I want him to feel it is a place where he can feel at home as a child and not somewhere where he is just tagging along with his Mum. And so that is my priority on Sunday rather than peace and quiet or even being able to hear the priest clearly and when he is old enough to go by himself or choose not to attend then I will go to another mass if I want to have a more peaceful experience.

As an older woman, in my 60s but with no hearing problems yet, can I just say telling me I can go to the 8 am to 6.30 pm services isn't very fair. My husband is disabled and I have been his carer for over 20 years, to get to the 8 am service I would need to be up at about 5.30 am as I need to give my husband some breakfast in bed before he can take his medication, then wait for med to kick in to help him to bathroom etc, I obviously need to wash and dress myself and hopefully get some breakfast. The only alternative would be to leave him in bed till I got back from church, not very fair really. In winter I don't like being out driving in the evening so basically what you are telling me is I can only go to church in the summer.

I have no problems with children in church, I grew up in a Roman Catholic family and one of my earliest memories is being in my dads arms at mass. It was a busy church and we couldn't have run round as the aisles were full and the service was heard by many people standing on the church steps in all weathers, those were the days.

I have never heard anyone being critical of a child crying at mass, I do think at 4 people are beginning to think they should be able to sit down for an hour but obviously different with SNs or at least it can be. We shouldn't really be saying SN children can't behave appropriately in church because many can. I know someone suggested SN children wouldn't have been in mass but that is not my experience.

When my own children were babies and toddlers I never experienced anything but support but I do think it would have raised eyebrows if I had let them run round. Obviously I don't know how disruptive it would have been in the OPs church but if people complained then something must have happened?

I do think the OP has had a bit of a hard time but I think this is partly due to her not seeming receptive to any suggestions or possible solutions. I was surprised she was so dismissive of what she refers to as an 'aquarium' I can remember when this sort of arrangement was introduced in my parish church over 50 years ago and I always thought it was a brilliant way of allowing parents to see and hear everything without having to worry about what little ones are doing. I have never gone to a Roman Catholic church with Sunday School or with a children's area, it is quite alien to me. I wonder if the play area is confusing to children? I always understood a church wasn't for playing in, my children and other children in the parish also seemed to understand as it was quite clear it wasn't a place for playing.

Really what I wanted to say to people worrying about a child being excluded is that suggesting older people are excluded is no more reasonable. We should all be welcome and we should all show consideration and tolerance and with rights come responsibilities.

Just wanted to add that my experience with Parish Priests is that they deals with baby noise really well. I can remember one announcing how much had been raised, can't remember what it was for now, my youngest at the time let out a great roar and the priest smiled and said, "Even the babies are excited by that." and everyone laughed. Church doesn't have to be miserable.

if you wish for a creche you should be prepared to take a turn in helping, I managed Sunday School 1 week a month when my daughters were small, an I'm a Guiding Leader too.

it's difficult to understand what's going on with the op other than expecting everything to revolve round her and her kids.

The only people who seem to be against that are the people who are insisting that all attempts at accommodations should come from the rest of the congregation and the OP is under no obligation to reciprocate in any way

I'm really puzzled at the way people commenting on this don't seem to have bothered to read even the OP's posts. She's detailed several ways in which she has done a lot to make accommodations and minimise the disturbance from her children, including sitting in a partitioned-of side chapel that seems to be expressly set up for the purpose and where they can't be seen by the rest of the congregation, taking shoes off, and carefully planning out resources to keep them quiet as much as is realistically possible. What are you expecting, is she supposed to tie them down and gag them?

I see why it's so personal for you now Fanjo I wasn't far off before when you told me I was. The difficulty is that when you have to fight so damned hard for what you're (your DD) is entitled to that sometimes anything at all anywhere near that line lights the fuse. That sounds horribly condescending and it's not meant that way, not that I expect you care what I say. No-one on this thread is anti-inclusion, or disablist and I'm plain affronted by the suggestion given my work history. I could also rattle off details of family members with SN that got me into it all. So anyone who thinks those of us suggesting the OP has a responsibility to not carry on regardless of the rest of the world are disablist/prejudiced/anti-inclusion can just naff right off. Those terms seem to be the new 'racist'. Call me those words if you like, if it's an easy slap down for you, but it just shows you know nothing about me.

Children should be raised with good manners. They should take their good manners everywhere with them, even to church.

It is not bad manners to play or cry in church, but it is bad manners to run around throwing toys and shouting. And may I add (not for OP but for any readers who may not know this) it is bad manners to let your child run up and down the aisle. Yes, it's such fun for the dc and some priests will smile benevolently at your little tear-away, but still, you should instill good manners in your dc.

Children are adaptable, and they understand that there's a time and place for everything - it just takes parents to show them. In church, we try to be quiet. At the football, it's ok to shout and cheer. In the park, you can throw balls and chase them. It's not rocket science.

No-one on this thread is anti-inclusion, or disablist and I'm plain affronted by the suggestion given my work history. I could also rattle off details of family members with SN that got me into it all. So anyone who thinks those of us suggesting the OP has a responsibility to not carry on regardless of the rest of the world are disablist/prejudiced/anti-inclusion can just naff right off. Those terms seem to be the new 'racist'

This.

The world is going to be terrible for those with SN when the easy accusation of 'Disablist!' has led the whole of society to expect complete self-absorption and a lack of realism from all parents with DC with SN.

I would think a sensible option would be for the OP to take her children out during the sermon. None of them are listening to it or getting anything from it, the OP certainly isn't, she reads aloud to her children during the sermon.

OP very specifically said that she plans things carefully and makes a particular effort to keep the children quiet during the sermon.

And may I add (not for OP but for any readers who may not know this) it is bad manners to let your child run up and down the aisle

Why not for OP? She and her DC do that too.

Gruntled - not tying and gagging, but demonstrating in both words and actions that running around and shouting in church is not acceptable. Done in whispered tones in the aisles and in normal tones at home in conversations preparing your child for church (restaurant, library, etc). If and when they get up, ask them nicely to sit down. If they do it again, and can't sit still, take them outside until they have settled. Talk to them about it, explain the reasoning. Make it very clear that roaming free in church is not acceptable. If you do this enough, they will learn. It's not rocket science, it's parenting.

Children are adaptable, and they understand that there's a time and place for everything - it just takes parents to show them. In church, we try to be quiet. At the football, it's ok to shout and cheer. In the park, you can throw balls and chase them. It's not rocket science.

Hear hear.

Low expectations of DC with mild SN is the real disablism.

Xpost kawliga, but we are on the same page.