To be sick of people slating Faith schools

[Jenga123]

Don't get me wrong I understand why some people may be against them but the negativity I've come across recently is, quite frankly ridiculous. I've been told by friends of friends, family etc that they pay for my dd's to attend their catholic primary and secondary schools and that tax payers that are paying towards these schools should not have to do so if their children can't attend these schools. Well let me just say the average amount of income tax each individual pays, that actually goes towards the upkeep of schools is minuscule, so they aren't in fact paying for them. Myself and the other parents of my dd's schools pay a considerable sum each year to the upkeep of the school and the school contributes 10% towards the costs of running their school and repairs etc.

I also come across animosity at the fact my children are getting a good education and people putting that down to them simply being baptised. But my point is if they feel that their own children are missing out by going to a less desirable school then I'm sure they could have them baptised therefor giving them a higher chance of securing a place at a faith school, and whilst I'm not advocating people pretending to be of the faith, I'm simply saying there are options.

As for my dd's schools like I said they are Catholic and are obviously places were parents of the same faith opt to send their children as they want them to be educated within that faith, and I can't see any problem with this to be honest so why am I hearing nothing but negativity from people?

"It's the governors, not the church, who set the admissions criteria for church schools."

Pontius Pilate, as I live and breathe!

Shall I bring you a bowl of warm water and some soap?

That's just ridiculous and uncalled for, Bertrand.

I was just stating a fact, not saying whether it was a good or bad thing. There have been cases where the church wanted to change the admissions policy but were blocked by the governors.

Anyway, can you find anywhere on this thread where I've said I was in favour of a faith criterion for school admission?

I can see both sides, but on balance, no I'm not.

But of course faith schools have the church strongly represented among the governors. For example, one of our local CofE schools has the vicar, four governors from the parish and two from the diocese.

Does anyone know what the relationship is between eg the church itself and what its representative governors do? Ie do the dioscean Governors take instruction from the diocese, or is it simply advice/requests? I've honestly no idea.

Also there's no reason why the church can't refuse to play on faith criteria tin

Not monitor attendance, baptisimal certificates to be kept o lying in the parish record for ecclesiastical reasons etc.

*- children in RC schools do not spend large portions of their time each week being 'indoctrinated' in RC religious education. They follow the national curriculum and cover a wide diversity of subjects the same as all other state schools. They also include learning about other all the major faiths in a respectful and completely tolerant way - my DC have celebrated Passover, Diwali, done projects on the Hindu Gods etc etc. They do not have Catholicism rammed down their throats most of every school day which is sometimes implied on these thread by people who know little about the facts.

• all the RC schools I have ever known (which is several during my own education in different parts of the country and as a school governor and parent) also had non RC children in them. Relations were absolutely fine - the non RC kids were not disadvantaged in any way and the 'mix' of kids was a non issue.*

Not my experience at all.

Really don't your kids pray 3 times a day and go to mass each week? Don't they ever write bidding prayers in class time? Which periods of history do they study? What do they learn abut contraception?

And as for non RC - my non RC cousin joined me for VI form - she says it taught her never to send a non RC child to an RC school

This is the sort of thing people worry about when sending their kids to faith schools.

My kids have been to two separate schools. The first was non religious. They learnt about all religions equally.

The second is Christian. They do prayer, sing religious songs. They learn about other religions (except Islam ) but crucially in a ' they believe this' but 'we believe that' way. Not exactly equal is it.

My kids are free to choose their religion or none. But it's only since moving schools that they have considered religious viewpoints to be irrefutable.

Fwiw no I would not choose a religious school. We live rurally so our choice is local school in local community or 25 minute drive to nearest non religious school. Most round here have a religious element. Ours is minimal compared to most.

I was just stating a fact, not saying whether it was a good or bad thing. There have been cases where the church wanted to change the admissions policy but were blocked by the governors.

yeah, but that doesn't make it better. I couldn't care less if it's the governors or the church doing the discriminating. In the end, it sucks either way.

When the subect of faith schools comes up on MN, there seem to be so many different camps;

Faith schools are WRONG I would never send my DC to one.

I/DH/DP went to a faith school. They are abusive. No way would I send my DC to one.

Faith schools are wrong, they shouldn't exist but they do. I really want my DC to go to the local school, and the nearest one is Catholic. I have to send my DC to a school 2 miles away, while many others drive from far and wide to send their DC to the school near my house. This is wrong IMO. I will get very cross about this at state it is discrimination.

Faith schools are wrong becuase they discriminate against non Christian children and I'm atheist. Yes there are other faith schools which aren't Christian, but I'm not going to mention those, because I wouldn't want my DC there anyway.

Faith schools exist. I don't care, as my DC go to a good school anyway.

My DC go to a faith school, it's on the other side of town, but it's "outstanding" and for the first time in my life I'm glad I'm from a Catholic family, and we got DC baptisted when she was a week old becuase my DM was over from Ireland/Bolivia/Sri Lanka/Spain for the birth, so we got her baptised before DM had to go home. The nearer schools aren't as nice, so I'm prepared to do the drive.

My DC go to a faith school. It's not the nearest school, and they could have gone there if I'd wanted, but I like that the ethos of the Catholic school as fits with my family. We attend mass when we get up early enough weekly

I was brought up in a CofE family and had decided it was all a load of bollocks. Until I realised the house we had just bought was next to an outstanding CofE school. Before I got pregnant, I volunteered with the flowers/ polishing silver/Sunday School and we have been offered a place. I'm atheist but prepared to jump through hoops.

I'm sure I've missed a few. Please feel free to add your own!

Faith schools weren't started with the sole intention of discriminating, obviously, but to educate. It seems though that is how many feel about them today. When more parents of a particular faith want their child educated at a particular school than there are places, admissions policies are necessary. Baptism, siblings, living in parish, etc are considered....the fact that someone not of the faith would even want to send their child to the school didn't even factor, because why would you want to? I wouldn't particularly want to send my DC to a Jehovah Witness/Muslim/Jewish even if it was Outstanding and gave away free croissants to parents each morning.

My DC would be pretty far down on many faith schools admissions lists. Late baptised, out of priority area, new priest doesn't know me from Adam etc....then DC would have been placed in the local school which is also "Good" but I wouldn't send my dog to after sending DS1 there for a year. As a Catholic, who attends almost mass weekly and helps out not as often as I should I would probably be pissed off. But I totally understand there have to be some sort of admissions policy, and it's not just to discriminate against people to didn't get their DC baptised a week after birth, or simply to discriminate against certain DC.

Each school can only accept a certain amount of DC each September. The idea is to include as many DC as possible, not to exclude anyone who isn't of the right religion.

Lynette has explained it well.

I like your summary of different views Lynette

However I think that faith schools started innocently enough with the church seeking to provide education often for poorer children - many villages still have a CofE primary which was the original village school founded and supported naturally enough in those days by the local parish church.

However let's just say things have got a lot more complicated since then.
We are living in a very different age and the school admission system does seem to be having trouble keeping up with life in the 21st century.

many villages still have a CofE primary which was the original village school founded and supported naturally enough in those days by the local parish church.

Probably worth considering who was financially supporting the local parish church - was it the vast majority of the local people? How did that work?

I do wonder if it might ease the bad feeling around faith school admissions if faith schools did have a category for taking all children in the most immediate vicinity - so a catchment if you like, however small - in addition to taking children meeting other faith based criteria from further afield.

If faith schools were at least able to accommodate those children living in their neighbouring streets I think it would both be, and be seen to be, a good deal fairer and more reasonable. This would also help slightly with cultural and social diversity within the school.

I think you may have won the thread with that post Lynette

It's always worth stating that not all 'faith schools' are the same.

Voluntary Controlled schools (about half of CofE schools) do not have foundation governors (ie nominated by the Church) and cannot set additional admissions criteria. They are LEA schools but the land and buildings are owned by the Church, which contributes 10% of capital costs, and entrusts the school's running and management to the LEA. The LEA is the admisisons authority and admissions are managed by the LEA.

Voluntary Aided schools (about half of CofE schools, most RC schools) have foundation governors as part of the governing body and can set additional admissions criteria, though they do not always do this. They are LEA schools but the land and buildings are owned by the Church, which contributes 10% of capital costs, and entrusts the school's running and management to the LEA. The LEA is the admissions authority and admissions are managed by the LEA.

Academies (including free schools) are not LEA schools but a owned by the Academy Trust and managed directly by the DfE. They can set their own admisions criteria and are their own admissions authority, but the LEA manages the admissions process.

Most CofE 'faith schools' were opened by the Church because there was no state education and no-one else was providing education for children whose parents were too poor to send them to fee-paying schools. When the 1870 education act was passed those schools were taken into the new national education system but were still owned and run by the church. The 1926 and 1944 education acts and all subsequent legislation has kept church schools on the same basis (while increasing the diversity of types of school, funding, admissions arrangement and so on).

The abolition of church schools would require the state to purchase the land and buildings of nearly 5000 schools from the Church of England and about half as many again RC schools. The current situation with admissions is due to legislation dating back to the 1920s and added to since then with the aim of creating parental choice.

I do wonder if it might ease the bad feeling around faith school admissions if faith schools did have a category for taking all children in the most immediate vicinity - so a catchment if you like, however small - in addition to taking children meeting other faith based criteria from further afield.

not for me. Somehow I find religious discrimination crosses a line in the sand.