To be sick of people slating Faith schools

[Jenga123]

Don't get me wrong I understand why some people may be against them but the negativity I've come across recently is, quite frankly ridiculous. I've been told by friends of friends, family etc that they pay for my dd's to attend their catholic primary and secondary schools and that tax payers that are paying towards these schools should not have to do so if their children can't attend these schools. Well let me just say the average amount of income tax each individual pays, that actually goes towards the upkeep of schools is minuscule, so they aren't in fact paying for them. Myself and the other parents of my dd's schools pay a considerable sum each year to the upkeep of the school and the school contributes 10% towards the costs of running their school and repairs etc.

I also come across animosity at the fact my children are getting a good education and people putting that down to them simply being baptised. But my point is if they feel that their own children are missing out by going to a less desirable school then I'm sure they could have them baptised therefor giving them a higher chance of securing a place at a faith school, and whilst I'm not advocating people pretending to be of the faith, I'm simply saying there are options.

As for my dd's schools like I said they are Catholic and are obviously places were parents of the same faith opt to send their children as they want them to be educated within that faith, and I can't see any problem with this to be honest so why am I hearing nothing but negativity from people?

I think that's a good idea Lentil.

"
so...children from chaotic homes where parents don't complete the necessary school application paperwork are what...? how is that fecklessness the responsibility of the Catholic Church (or any other Church)? Are you suggesting that Church schools should be out there trying to actively pick up children who's parents can't be bothered to parent them properly to prove that they are 'doing good' and are not discriminating?"
Well in an ideal world, why not? They are Chriatians, after all! . But in this particular circumstances- it just means that faith schools have fewer of the chaotic families, and therefore are more likely to get better results. Nothing to do with God- everything to do with selection.

so...children from chaotic homes where parents don't complete the necessary school application paperwork are what...? how is that fecklessness the responsibility of the Catholic Church (or any other Church)? Are you suggesting that Church schools should be out there trying to actively pick up children who's parents can't be bothered to parent them properly to prove that they are 'doing good' and are not discriminating?

Well. That would be the Christian thing to do wouldn't it? Try to help the most disadvantaged?

The parents (or parent) who isn't well enough versed in such things to ensure they have been to church regularly for 2 years prior to admission. Or whatever. Who maybe doesn't have a car, has 3 young children, possibly one with disabilities, just trying to get through the week.

Or the looked after child, or ex looked after who isn't baptised or maybe is but just hasn't been to church because they've moved families 5 times in the 4 years of their life. Who gets prioritised behind all the faith children with lovely stable families who have taken them to church every week.

ps I live in an all comp area, and it's fantastic.

llhj, the government doesn't have to abolish faith schools, all it has to do is to remove their right to discriminate against children who are not of their faith. As I said above, I suspect the vast majority would not close down because (a) they're still subsidised by the government and (b) they still value the ability to propagandise. Personally I have serious issues about whether that should be allowed either, but at least the law allows parents to withdraw their children from faith based assemblies and RE.

How many people have become religious because of attending faith-based assemblies? I went to a church school and there certainly wasn't a great tide of people suddenly becoming Christians.

tinofbiscuits, judging by the amount of atheists I know who were brought up Catholic, I'd hazard it's quite the opposite!

Probably none, tinofbiscuits, but having the chance every morning to drum your religion into a thousand children does tend to strengthen the waverers and also helps to spread the perception that those who believe are better than those who don't.

Catholic schools do have to accept a percentage of children from the catchment area regardless of their faith.

I went to a school that wasn't a faith school but emphasised religion in a big way; my parents would, I suppose, broadly have described themselves as C of E but weren't churchgoers. It was really difficult at first because I instinctively felt that I was inferior to the others who knew how to behave in church and who could answer the RE teacher when she asked what the Annunciation was, for instance. The effect of 7 years of a type of indoctrination was that I did come out broadly more religious than my parents, albeit that there were elements that needled me - I really couldn't understand the logic of it being a requirement to go to a particular building to worship at a particular time, and didn't understand why worship would be less valid at any other time of the week and in any venue. It was literally decades later that I finally let go of the notion that religion was anything other than a cosy fiction.

So I suppose it really is the case that church schools can and do evangelise, even if they don't have faith-based selection criteria.

Hels mostly this only happens if challenged.

HelsBels, usually 10% so 3 children in a reception class. But this varies based on the technical status of the school.

Catholic schools do help the less advantaged, they have helped to integrate large immigrant Polish and Filipino communities. Many Polish children are unable to speak English when first attending, and in my area people from the church go in to the school to help the children with their language development. That is not state funded that is community based.

I'm not at all convinced your children are getting a 'better' education. All the Oxbridge educated teachers I know wouldn't go near a faith school, selecting and excluding children on the basis of their parents religion and causing social division within a community doesn't go down too well with most intelligent, morally focused people.

My issue with faith schools is the same as my issue with private schools and single sex schools. All children should simply be educated together.

Posie, in some areas, a Catholic primary may get only one non Catholic child applying. In other areas it will be vastly over subscribed both by RC parents and catchment parents. Academies can basically set their own admission criteria as long as it's within the law. Strange how schools are the only organisation exempt from laws governing religious discrimination. Imagine if your local Beavers tried to exclude a Jewish child? The fact that they are also fundamentally an organisation with its roots in religious doctrine does not place them above the law.

Helsbels, thats not true a lot of people think its true but its not. At both dd1 and dd2s school they work through the admisions criteria and if they are filled by catholics then thats that no spaces left for anyone else.

As it happens Im not a catholic but I wanted a faith based education. I chose a small very unpopular school for dd1 when she was 4, at one point there was 70 pupils on the register. But I loved the ethos and the feel of it, and it is larger and slightly more popular now, but still tiny. The results have always been good, and so have the ofsteds.

All the Oxbridge educated teachers I know wouldn't go near a faith school, selecting and excluding children on the basis of their parents religion and causing social division within a community doesn't go down too well with most intelligent, morally focused people.

Oxbridge educated teachers are more morally focussed people? Where on earth did you get that seeing generalisation from?

Lentil I'm confused by your post. I am an anti theist and very much against religious privilege of any kind.

LentilStew - absolutely. It's religious discrimination using taxpayers' money.

Faith schools act as though they are private clubs, which they effectively are when they can set their own admission criteria.

Well. That would be the Christian thing to do wouldn't it? Try to help the most disadvantaged?

could you actually push up your bosoms any further?

You are crazy. Parents need to take responsibility for their own parenting and ensure that their children get a school place. That is not the responsibility of the Catholic (or any other) Church.

I work (as an atheist) at a Catholic School. We are located close to a very poor estate. Our free school meal rates are through the roof. Our looked after children figures are higher than any other school within a 25 mile radius. Our SEN numbers are 10% above national average. There is no way we can fiddle our admissions as they are dealt with for us by the local authority. Our results are still better than many other local schools. Bog all to do with not letting the riff-raff in.

We don't teach 'Jesus said...' and we absolutely teach about other religions and what other people believe (or not). After all, our children take the same GCSE as everyone else. Mass once a year for an hour. Liturgy 3 times a year for about 30 minutes. A prayer and sign of the cross in assembly once a week. It's hardly brain-washing. We do teach people should be nice to each other, be forgiving, not steal, be non-judgemental...all the stuff other schools teach in the name of 'life, the universe and everything'. There is no 'Catholic teachers' getting jobs thing either....why would you choose a shite Catholic teacher over an outstanding non-Catholic teacher when recruiting?

I am by the number of people who have clearly never been near a Catholic School, let alone several Catholic schools, to be able to make 'this is what happens in Catholic schools' statements.

I get the 'it's discrimination' stuff. I don't really agree with it. There are plenty of schools I would like to send my children to (including the one I work at but we don't meet criteria so it will never happen) but can't for many different reasons. That's life, surely?

I was saying that most religious schools do operate with religious discrimination, and so when oversubscribed they discriminate at that point.... unless challenged.

And for those using the argument 'well why would you want your child to attend a faith school if you aren't of that faith' - the answer is that there is a finite pot of money (and a tight one at that) for local state schools.

Oh dear, my lovely Oxbridge educated NDN is a teacher in a faith school.

Kimlo, it certainly is true in many areas. Sadly admission criteria is not standardised.

Look at Jordanhill school in Glasgow. An opted out state school where they receive their funding direct so therefore can set their own admission rules. They operate on a first come first served approach so take registration from birth. They are massively oversubscribed in an area already very affluent. So even if you live across the road, if your child happens to be born in Feb (year cut off in Scotland like Aug in England) they may not get a place because it will already be full from children born the previous March onwards. This invariably means that as a school they often end up with an older cohort from an already very affluent suburb. Their results are superb but of course they are. This makes the massively over subscribed which in turn makes local house prices soar higher which in turn influences their results... They may receive their money direct but it is still coming from public funds.