To ask you to explain to me why real fur is bad?

[WaitrosePigeon]

I would never wear real fur. Even faux fur doesn't float my boat.

However I want to know why it's bad. Is it solely animals being killed for their fur or are there any other reasons?

Reason I ask is because I overheard a conversation when I picked my daughter up from nursery earlier. To cut a long story short a woman asked the other woman if the coat was 'real', and apparently it was.

I will give it all a good Google to educate myself but I know I can count on MN to giving to me straight.

Thanks in advance and I know I sound ignorant.

Wearing fur isn't 'wrong'. There is no moral principle inherent in the act.
The choice of whether or not to wear fur belongs to the individual. If you don't like it, or don't like how it is harvested, don't wear it.
At present we have a situation in the UK where those who are anti-fur have bullied others into compliance - throwing acid in the faces of fur-wearers, daubing them with red paint or/for blood, those are bullying tactics, and indeed, criminal acts. Those acts are definitely 'wrong'. There is an inherent moral principle. Rearing animals for fur has only been illegal in the UK since 2000. There are plenty of 'legacy' furs around - weren't PETA handing them out in Calais recently? www.peta.org.uk/blog/donated-fur-to-refugees-in-syria-and-calais/
You might say 'wearing fur is wrong'. Someone else might say 'For a woman to leave the house without covering her face is wrong'. These are opinions based on belief and conviction but they are not, independently, moral imperatives.

Ripping the skin off a live animal is most definitely morally wrong.

There is always going to be a line that you draw somewhere. Animals are killed to enable soya production. Most farm animals would not exist without farmers.

People draw the line in different places, but historically the fur trade has been about providing luxury fur, often from endangered animals. Rich people haven't generally wanted to wear squirrel skin therefore many people feel that fur is over the line and they can cope perfectly well without it.

Years ago there were no man made materials that could compare to fur. It kept people warm, and not much could compete with it. These days we have plenty of man made alternatives that mean there is no need for fur as clothing unless it is still on the animal.

Timelytess.
Is something only wrong if it's illegal? A lot of fur production is illegal anyway but that's not the only reason something is wrong.
A woman showing her face doesn't hurt another living being. Fur harms and kills a living animal.
If fur isn't wrong then neither is throwing paint on those wearing fur. If killing isn't wrong then nothing is. No point in any sense of morality.

Most farm animals would not exist without farmers

I don't quite understand your point here.

Mrsdevere.
Humans don't need meat in the same way they don't need fur. It doesn't matter if historically they've eaten it.
In the uk people who eat meat are doing it for personal pleasure. It isn't not needed. The same is true of fur.

I wear fur.

I also wear leather. Leather is not necessarily a by-product of the meat trade, and you are kidding yourself if you think it is. But even if it was, you don't need either leather or meat.

I would not go to PETA for reasons not to use animals for fur or any other reason.

They are not advocates for animal welfare. They have a political agenda which is largely predicated on ending oppression as they see it.

That sounds great, until you realise that they are ideologically opposed to humans owning animals as pets and so destroy pets, or companion animals as they call them, that enter their 'shelters' rather than rehoming them.

They think this is preferable to animals living in slavery. That's a philosophy that I can respect, but it's not one they make clear.

Because while I might accept their point of view, I guess that most people would find it horrifying.

I have to admit I wasnt aware of that aspect of PETA. I will certainly research them a bit more before giving them any more support.

Please do crispbutty and get the correct facts. Don't be swayed by other's personal opinion.

Crispbutty
www.peta.org/features/deadly-consequences-no-kill-policies/
This explains why they do euthanise sometimes and it's perfectly sensible and the better, less cruel option in some cases until laws are properly changed.

Maisy, I have always supported animal charities and just reading your post about the process of obtaining fur makes me feel utterly sick. I have never understood why in modern days any society would need or want to wear real fur.

Sometimes to win the war you have to lose a battle as they say.

You do realise that some of these animals are not dead when their fur is removed right?

They are literally skinned alive and left to die an agonising death?

Some animals are in cages and dropped from a height to kill them and that doesn't always work.

So how about OP you get skinned alive and then left on a pile of other skinned people and left to just rot.

Then come back here and ask that question again.

The video was awful crispbutty, I think it was filmed in China where the most horrendous acts of animal abuse take place.

Can someone please explain to me why they need to skin the animal whilst it's alive? Why can't they kill it and then skin it?

Or is it just PETA propaganda?

To anyone who wears fur or asks why its cruel watch this video

You cannot make excuses for supporting this kind of trade.

I genuinely think people who wear fur are monsters to be honest.

This is a hard watch but if you can please do watch it.

features.peta.org/ChineseFurFarms/

It makes the fur look better

Eg slow electrocution makes the fur stand on end nicely

maggie to kill the animals in a humane way would cost money. The monsters who run this industry do not care about animals, just money.

Ripping the skin off a live animal is most definitely morally wrong
To be honest, I can't disagree with that point of view at all. The method of killing which put me off fur was the hot iron inserted into the rectum to avoid damaging the fur.
Causing unnecessary suffering is definitely wrong.

I still don't understand the difference between skinning a live animal and a dead animal - surely it is possible to kill the animal without marking the fur, eg bolt through the head or something. Still barbaric but better than skinning it alive - and possibly easier too as it won't struggle? And once the animal is dead, how will its fur stand on end? I would have expected it would be the same no matter how it dies?

I hardly think China are going to worry about euthanizing a mink with their Human Rights record.

fur coats, leather boots, fur hats, boots, gloves, leather jackets, down duvets and down jackets ...all dead critters.

It's really an indulgence to complain about one thing being killed and being willing to put up with the rest.

There was a mink farm close to where I grew up. In the 70's it was broken into by activists (heart in the right place but ill thought out plan.. ).

All the mink were released and have now almost decimated the local wildlife.

If the mink had not been being farmed in the first place though, this would never have happened.

When undercover investigators made their way onto Chinese fur farms, they found that many animals are still alive and struggling desperately when workers flip them onto their backs or hang them up by their legs or tails to skin them. When workers on these farms begin to cut the skin and fur from an animal's leg, the free limbs kick and writhe. Workers stomp on the necks and heads of animals who struggle too hard to allow a clean cut.

When the fur is finally peeled off over the animals' heads, their naked, bloody bodies are thrown onto a pile of those who have gone before them. Some are still alive, breathing in ragged gasps and blinking slowly. Some of the animals' hearts are still beating five to 10 minutes after they are skinned. One investigator recorded a skinned raccoon dog on the heap of carcasses who had enough strength to lift his bloodied head and stare into the camera.
Before they are skinned alive, animals are pulled from their cages and thrown to the ground; workers bludgeon them with metal rods or slam them on hard surfaces, causing broken bones and convulsions but not always immediate death. Animals watch helplessly as workers make their way down the row. 

Undercover investigators from Swiss Animal Protection/EAST International toured fur farms in China's Hebei Province, and it quickly became clear why outsiders are banned from visiting. There are no penalties for abusing animals on fur farms in China—farmers can house and slaughter animals however they see fit. The investigators found horrors beyond their worst imaginings and concluded, "Conditions on Chinese fur farms make a mockery of the most elementary animal welfare standards. In their lives and their unspeakable deaths, these animals have been denied even the simplest acts of kindness." 


On these farms, foxes, minks, rabbits, and other animals pace and shiver in outdoor wire cages, exposed to driving rain, freezing nights, and, at other times, scorching sun. Mother animals, who are driven crazy from rough handling and intense confinement and have nowhere to hide while giving birth, often kill their babies after delivering litters. 


The globalization of the fur trade has made it impossible to know where fur products come from. China supplies more than half of the finished fur garments imported for sale in the United States. Even if a fur garment's label says it was made in a European country, the animals were likely raised and slaughtered elsewhere—possibly on an unregulated Chinese fur farm.