Aibu to get cross that the more advanced children never get 121 help in state schools?

[arethereanyleftatall]

I volunteer at my dcs school, listening to children read.
I always listen to the less able pupils.
Outside the classrooms there is always 121 help going on, either with the assistant teacher or another parent volunteer, always always with the less able pupils.
I have been in to the schools hundreds of times, and I have never once seen any of the children who are doing really well, getting extra help.
I get that I should be grateful that my dc don't need the extra help, I get that the class will move forward as a group faster if the less able can keep up, I get that done dc don't get help at all at home, etc etc
But I just wish that sometimes, just once, the kids who are doing well get pushed on.
Aibu?

stumblymonkey I understand what you're saying. I agree that over-pushing isn't a good idea for the reasons you say and no, achievement doesn't equal happiness. But equally, feeling that you haven't done as well as you could because you got bored and discouraged by work at a level that was too low doesn't equal happiness either. There's a balance to be had.

Yes YaBu

All you're seeing is the reading side.

Agree with Weltham above, if a child can't decode then they need to work in much smaller groups or 121 to aid them in this particular aspect of literacy. Wouldn't the children who are doing well or exceptionally at decoding do better with other methods to develop their literacy? I don't see what value there to an exceptional reader having extra sessions reading aloud to a volunteer or TA?

Both of my sons needed extra help with reading and had individual learning plans inplace, the youngest was referred to an educational phycologist. They had several activites and small groups in place to help them, extra 121 with a TA was only a small part of it. The feedback from school was always that they were bright, lots of ideas with great verbal skills. What they couldn't do was read, write neatly, get punctuation, spell, concentrate, remember times tables. I'm always being told that my youngest is a natural mathmatician and very logical, one said he didnt see too many like him. Still he is crap with tables and is no where near the top tables, go figure

Those extra 121 TA sessions helped them both get to a reading level where they could use it to fufil their educational potential. My eldest one spent primary with extra reading help, year 5 he started to improved. Half way through year 6 he became a free reader. Term 2 of secondary and we were told he had the reading ability to start an English degree, suddenly he could read anything. My youngest is following the same pattern.

I have two children who would fall in the very broad definition of G and T and even I don't think they should be taken out to have one to ones with anyone!

They just haven't reached this ceiling effect whereby everything is too easy for them at either of the primary schools they have attended. This may apply more in maths, but in literacy- surely if they are given differentiated comprehension, the opportunity to read way above their age (in graded ways, not just as free readers) then if they want to write, they can write pages of great writing, they are free to do that. They are hardly inhibited by anyone else not being able to do that, in the way that a child who is very poor at reading and writing often does become completely discouraged when they compare themselves with others.

Or perhaps they are not exceptionally bright, but they always seem to find things to interest them, their own projects, ideas, stuff to make, games to play- to me that's part of being a bright child, intense curiosity about the world.

I was super-bright but wasn't massively academically challenged til about sixth form, but I have to say I also didn't try very hard in subjects I wasn't naturally good at, and if there could be one amendment to teaching brighter kids, its to let them know how to learn/motivation even when it isn't in a subject which is natural to them.

Otherwise, I think being able to read is an absolute gift in life. If you look at the reading level of the prison population, about 50% can't read or write very well. I would rather get the general levels of literacy up with any spare money we had, through intensive intervention very early on in primary, than worry about pushing the really bright kids just that tiny bit more. In terms of making a difference to life chances, I firmly believe that is the key one.

My dc went to private school and they didn't get 1 to1 help either. I'm not complaining but the grass isn't always greener.

YANBU. I left secondary school in 2007 and this was an issue when I was at school. The more able pupils were not challenged by lessons at all.

I remember mentioning a book that we hadn't directly been taught in school. It was relevant and supported my argument. I was told off because the book wasn't on the syllabus and I should have been worrying about what was on the syllabus. Academic curiosity was not encouraged.

liinyo - totally agree. There was a thread on here the other day about whether a parent worrying about her primary school age pupil who wasn't doing his homework and I said pretty much this there.

My DCs primary school did run a group for the "bottom middlies" which were usually boys who were average but not highly motivated, to get them more motivated. But it was a school which tried to get everyone involved, so everyone had a chance to shine at something and to do something special in an area they were weak.
For example my DD (who hated the school) was involved in Tag Rugby including a tournament, and later asked to go to a specialist Squash course, as she wasn't "high achieving" in sport (mainly because she felt excluded by the "sporty" girls).

Both my dc's were in extension groups for maths.

All of the children in this group got a level 6 in their maths SATS last year.

Ordinary state primary in rough area.

However, both of my boys are also musically talented, and this is ignored to the point that they were both were usually excused attending music lessons in school (or given jobs like stapling or sent back to the main classroom to compose something on an IPAD) because the teacher couldn't be arsed to differentiate for them. She also added insult to injury by never giving either of them an opportunity to perform in front of the other children or the parents. Because that would be, you know, showing off.

I'm a bit indifferent myself. There are many children with SN and who are struggling at their school. If there is a shortage of resources (there is) then these children should have first dibs on the staff.

Very good readers need great books, and some peace to read them in, not one to one help.

Very good writers need to be given challenging writing tasks and have someone respond intelligently to their work.

Kids who are way ahead in maths need small group extension work.

Other than this? No, one to one teaching isn't necessary.

YABU
Both my DD are at the top end of the class and had what we called "retroremedial 1:1 teaching" - state school.

I didn't like it and I actually pushed for DD2 to go back into whole class group as she didn't need the stress. She is now top of her year at secondary, so I feel vindicated.

So, it's just that quiet middle group who lose out. I wonder if any teacher has ever had the opportunity to provide attention to such a child?

I don't think they miss out with respect to teaching. Almost every single lesson will have its main pitch / pace set to the middle group.

What I think they do miss out on often is recognition. e.g. certificates go to the high achievers, or the strugglers who have made a progress step. But the quiet average kids can get overlooked.

Children who struggle to read and write or with numeracy need the focussed 1 to 1 for teaching and practice. They need that extra practice so that they can partake in the school work for their year group. It's only fair they get the extra help. Otherwise they can't access the schoolwork to match their age. They have 1 to 1 and small group work frequently throughout the year.

Core children (the group in the middle) can get what they need from the teeacher but any gaps detected can be cleared up in short, infrequent 1 to 1 or in small groups with others with similar gaps/issues.

Extension children (high achievers) have small group work to teach them extension material, later in the year usually.

In class each child are constantly assessed and given next steps by teacher to develop them. Each group are also given different goals in their work appropriate to their level so none can just sit on their haunches - they are all developing towards group and personal targets.

So I don't think you are seeing the full picture.

My eldest(and other kids) got to do English with supprt staff she and they were advanced and got work from the year above, youngest dd has Sen and got learning support from support staff at a run of the mill primary its quite common. dd was in primary 11yrs ago my friends advanced child is in early primary and he ia getting extra suport

Rickety - you're describing what should happen, not what does.

DD is an average reader, but a phonics and spelling whizz. She keeps coming home with the same set of spellings - we're on week 4 now - because 'her group hasn't got them all right yet' - direct quote from her teacher.

She had them right week one, so has learned the grand sum total of nothing in this area for three weeks now.

Her best friend is an outstanding reader - completely fluent and expressive with every text I've ever seen her with at age 6. The school push every child to read every night, and have a badge scheme to encourage this - but Friend won't be able to get all her badges this year and has been stopped form reading every night, as the school have stopped changing out her books frequently enough. The reason given - 'we can't let her carry on the school's book list or she'll have nothing to do next year' - again, a direct quote. They won't even let her count her own books from home.

In both cases, these girls are being actually, actively held back so that they don't get too far ahead. Accordingly, both are coasting in these areas and are bored. They're also getting cocky about it - I've had to sit on DD a couple of times, and Friend's mum says the same. Both she and I have suggested that they spend the time on their weaker areas instead of repeating work, but that's 'not possible' apparently, and nor is giving them additional work to stretch them - see the getting too far ahead, issues.

This is a school that is phenomenal at upskilling lower-ability children and its SEN/SN provision is outstanding. They do excellent work in those areas and the inclusion is fantastic to watch.

Is it time to admit that one teacher with 30 children in one classroom can't do it all and change how we structure schools?

ginnybag you're right.

ginny Your school might be great with the lower ability but is clearly failing higher ability. It is not the 'system' that is causing this though, it is the school's SLT.

i don't see this as a massive problem for reading. I went to a tiny school, could read before starting school (which I know is far from unusual but the other kids in the class couldn't) and basically had no one to play with for the first couple of years so read absolutely all the time. Upshot was I was ridiculously far ahead of the the rest of the class. No, I wouldn't have been particularly challenged by any of the work in that area I was getting at school but I was learning all the time, I certainly don't feel I was in any way held back.

I would love it if they could focus efforts on a child's weaker areas as ginny points out. Dd2 aged 7 is an avid reader and writes beautifully. She reads all the time at home (blyton, walliams etc) but is quite weak at maths. I barely bother with the lame reading books she gets from school - our time doing homework much better spent doing numicon or playing bus stop.

Ginnybag are you really suggesting that your dd needs stretching with spelling what a waste of everybodies time, you can only go so far with spelling and it is meaningless "gift" once you are proficient at it and her friend can read anything she wants at home, why push with the school books?
OP
I have a ds who has been on the SEN register for dyslexic problems but also on the G&T list for sciences etc over the years, used to with a small group to the HM for extra maths for a while as well as extra help for his writing as it was clearly holding him back, from what he was capable of.

DD also got taken out for some G&T maths with the TA, ie stretching not racing through the curriculum.

My DD appears able (according to her teacher) especially in maths and reading, she is only reception though and despite being young in the year.

She is definitely being stretched in all sorts of ways. At times she comes home with random books outside the reading scheme with comments in the diary that they are to 'stretch her.' When we looked at her book at parents evening when they did measuring she plotted lengths on a graph as an extension.

And the best thing is that she is happy, loves school and has no idea she is anything other than average.

1-1 time isn't about ability but need. Ds needs 1-1 time in order to be able to get the most out of his work. Other children wouldn't benefit from that in thr same way. Schools have to do the best they can with the resources available

Bizarrely in terms of progress, working 1:1 with a TA has been shown not to have good impact compared with other interventions:

www.literacytrust.org.uk/assets/0002/6752/EEF_Toolkit_pdf_version.pdf

Presumably that depends if the TA is experienced enough to avoid doing the work for the child and if he/she has the ability to ask questions that will help the child to develop independent thought rather than relying on the TA for the strategies to use.

Yes, I think it really depends on the TA. The TA that works with dd and some of her classmates (sometimes 1:1 and sometimes in a small group) has a natural flair for working with the kids and encouraging them to develop their ideas and think critically about stuff. DD loves working with her. As it happens, she also has an Oxbridge PhD, so she is very well qualified, though not a qualified teacher.

It's not only TAs who do 1 to 1. A lot of pupil premium funding is used for literacy and numeracy intervention work by trained teachers. This is targeted at lots of different levels of students.