Aibu to get cross that the more advanced children never get 121 help in state schools?

[arethereanyleftatall]

I volunteer at my dcs school, listening to children read.
I always listen to the less able pupils.
Outside the classrooms there is always 121 help going on, either with the assistant teacher or another parent volunteer, always always with the less able pupils.
I have been in to the schools hundreds of times, and I have never once seen any of the children who are doing really well, getting extra help.
I get that I should be grateful that my dc don't need the extra help, I get that the class will move forward as a group faster if the less able can keep up, I get that done dc don't get help at all at home, etc etc
But I just wish that sometimes, just once, the kids who are doing well get pushed on.
Aibu?

There is only so much money available and so the funding should go towards those that need it most. The extra support given to children with sen is to enable them to have an adequate education. They won't be getting a better one than anyone else. Not properly supporting those with sen will cost the state a lot more in the long term because they will require more state support as adults.

Also more able pupils can (I know they don't always get it) get extra support if they have sen such as a learning disability. You can be academically able and have a sen.

it would be impossible for his teacher to differentiate in class when he picks up the lesson in 5 minutes flat.

Not at all impossible. Yes more of a challenge, but he should no more be excluded from lessons for being "more able" than someone "less able". The teacher should be differentiating properly to adapt for him. What a shame.

I think people are not thinking about this logically. When a child can't actually read (decode), they need to be one on one so that adult can target specific sounds, blends etc. Also, for the rest of the group, listening to a child painfully and slowly read a short passage is boring and a waste of their learning time. They aren't learning from each other.

When a child is an able reader, they can read in a group. They can hear each other read with correct intonation, using the punctuation and expression. They can discuss the author's meaning and intention together, agreeing and disagreeing and developing their ideas. Not only are the reading skills f this group better but the discussion and analysis skills. A group is beneficial to these children.

Yes money is an issue, yes less able children have the greater need but 'fairness' does not mean 'teaching every child in exactly the same way. Sam is taken out of assembly so Bob should be too.' It may not be beneficial for Bob.

Able children ARE stretched, it just isn't as visible. Independent and group work can all be forms of stretch, it does not need a TA taking them out.

I'm sorry but this really annoys me as a constant refrain from parents of able children. I genuinely believe I differentiate for all my children. I work with every group every week. I expect a lot of my 7 year olds who are achieving at the level of 9 year olds. But all they can ever think to say is 'high ability children are ignored' - what are you basing this on?!

There should be challenge within the lesson to add extra depth

I know in my sons' school the very able children are given extra classes in the area they excel - including creative writing, art, music and sport. Not just 'academic' subjects.

BUT isn't this a budget/organisational issue? My mum worked for the LEA in a specialist service. She was the dyslexia specialist so she personally provided support in the schools across the borough for kids with dyslexia. Her colleagues did other support for kids with numeracy issues, the pregnant schoolgirls, the hospital school, travellers, kids with hearing problems etc etc and also G&T kids. That service doesn't exist any more because all the secondary schools in the borough and most of the primaries are academies. I have no idea how the support works now.

The ones least likely to get extra support seem to be the average children in my experience, the top get pushed to get the next level and the lower ability ones need the support but that middle table often are left to themselves, at least that's what I've heard mentioned by teacher friends.

Posted too soon. There should be depth, but it needs to add value to the curriculum rather than being "busy work". If I set the wrong tasks for challenge, it's either irrelevant and could be a distraction from assessment criteria (e.g. irrelevant for a GCSE syllabus) or if I stretch too far ahead, that gap will grow causing further problems.

Differentiating down by changing layouts, editing the range of information is simpler. The general trend is that less able students are less likely to have the study skills to work independently to access the curriculum, and have a higher priority on staff time to be able to function.

YANBU that there should be challenge for the more able, but in an already under resourced system YABU to expect increased staffing for the more able.

I volunteer in a yr 1 class. I listen to readers but I have a list of the higher ability readers and I listen to them read and work with them on their comprehension skills, so it does happen.

A good teacher in a good school will push the able children, and of course the children who need extra help should receive it. But I think there's a fair point in the OP, more able children do miss out on 1-2-1 time that could benefit them.

Especially in the younger years, I think it can be hard for them to understand why some children get more focus than they do, even if they can reason that X needs more help with reading than they do. 1-2-1 time helps build children's relationships with staff, those children get the opportunity to be 'known' more than the others by various members of staff. And having undivided attention is nearly always going to be good for a child's self esteem.

I think there is space for every child to be given some one on one time with the TA or helpers at least once in a half term, there's always progress to be made and it's very rare that a child never struggles with anything. Just because they meet this years ofsted criteria doesn't mean they wouldn't benefit from some individual attention, even if they don't need the focused academic instruction as much as others.

Part of the system of reviewing the 'performance' of a school is that the schools are pressured to 'close the gap' between the children the traditionally lower performing groups (Looked after children, pupil premium children) and those who are outside of these groups and traditionally achieve higher grades. To close the gap the progress of the lower performing children must be faster than the higher performing children.

The way this is meant to work is that the higher performing children get what they have always got whereas there is extra money for extra resources for some of the lower performing groups for targeted support. From the outside this may look like the higher performing children aren't getting their share but as others have said, it is to the benefit of all if the whole class is able to make good progress.

I have intentionally left SEN out of it as each case there is individual.

I don't agree. Last term my dds teacher told me she was struggling in maths. This term a maths for fun group was set up and my dd wasn't one of the kids asked to join. I asked the teacher why and she said my dd was struggling with top level maths and she was past the stage the group are at. Now it's a shame she wasn't more clear the first time round but in the interim I spent loads of time at home doing extra maths with my dd. support with learning should come from home too

The TA especially after early years is often funded by a child's Statement or by money delegated to the school for children with sen with or without a Statement/Ehcp. They will have specific things to do with those children.

DS2 was taught KS3 Science from Year 4 all the way through to the end of Year 6 by a TA who used to be a secondary science teacher. He was regularly taken to the local secondary school to do practicals.

He and three other children were taught KS3 Maths in a small group by one of the governors who was a retired secondary maths teacher.

In my experience, if the child is working two or three years ahead, then state schools are able to offer individual or small group teaching.

As well as being academically way ahead, he also has SEN, so was offered help for his learning difficulties too.

I've often helped with the more able reading (as a volunteer, because they did get "heard" less often than the less able). I have also know the more able be taken for special activities including visits and competitions (Science and Maths).
Good differentiation should be able to "stretch" them in the classroom - getting them to think about the "why" not just how.

Finally there is evidence that 1:1 time often doesn't seem to do that much for the less able. Who by the way aren't the only ones to get 1:1, as there are quite a lot of children who both have an SEN and are highly intelligent.

YABU....I was a 'gifted' child at a state school. I didn't get 1-2-1 or special work.

So what?

Sorry for the bluntness but I don't get the problem? If they're gifted children they'll do well anyway; get good GCSEs and then the world is their oyster.

After school they have all of the opportunities the world can offer them. Why should state schools on such limited budgets give them an extra helping hand that they don't need?

The real world will be a big shock to them if they're wrapped up in cotton wool and given special treatment for being gifted...

Just my personal opinion of course...

Dc secondary has special session, classes and trips for gifted and talented. My dc have been on no educational day trips. The gifted children are always at the museum or art gallery or a show.

Morning.

Some great posts here, notably wellthen. I promise I won't be that parent anymore, I get it now!

It seems then that in some schools, the more advanced do get pushed or learn from being Independant anyway.

So, it's just that quiet middle group who lose out.

I wonder if any teacher has ever had the opportunity to provide attention to such a child?

I'm not sure it happens in independent schools either. It's certainly not happened for my DC who is extremely bright. But by senior, she was so proactive in seeking ideas, recommendations, extension work ideas and reading around and beyond her year. That's how it should be with gifted and talented pupils. If they're that bright, they'll seek it out themselves.
It's the kids in the middle that I think need help too. Those that would get a C without it, but an A if they were given a large shove by someone who made learning inspirational and irrestible.

If they're gifted children they'll do well anyway

That's not always the case. If they become bored, with no challenges, they may become less motivated.

And why should "doing well anyway" be enough? Why shouldn't they be enabled to achieve their best instead of coasting?

I worked as a TA for a while and often did extra work with the less able children. However the more able children were given differentiated work and we're all sat together so the highest achievers were doing work that the less able would find more difficult.

So yes I think YABU.

On the other hand there is an issue about schools not necessarily stretching the most able as much as possible but given their budget and staffing issues I think they do a pretty good job.

Both my children have been in special groups for extra complicated maths and dd has been in a comprehension/reading group one year. These were run by the head/SLT so were short (but appreciated sessions). I think a TA might run a more intensive group for children needing extra support.

DS even spent done time in a group for children in the middle of the ability range. It seemed a bit random at the time but he loved it and it boosted his confidence having that attention.

Tinofbiscuits....I suppose there is a fundamental difference of opinion.

As a 'gifted child' who has done well and ended up with the kind of coveted job in the City I can only say there is SO much more to life than 'achievement'.

A year or so ago I finished having therapy for severe depression where it came out that my self-esteem so far has been based on 'achievement' due to the focus on my 'gifts'.

Achievement does not equal happiness. I would be wary of focusing on achievement and pushing children for achievement rather than happiness.

At the school I volunteer in, I listen to whichever child is next on my list. Some are very able readers and others need help to sound out each word.

During lesson times, the work given out is differentiated. Some children might be practising letter formation. Others will be writing several paragraphs. The staff and helpers spend a fairly equal amount of time with each group.