To not have issues with the dole as a lifestyle choice

[pinksaltlamp]

It's hardly a life of Riley at 72 quid a week but I think it would allow people some time out to develop themselves creatively. It's probably why the UK has and still does punch card above its weight in the arts, especially music. Some of the greatest musicians of the country have spent significant amounts of time on the role that allowed them to create music. Especially as there is a lack of jobs in this country. Maybe inflation, especially house prices, would be less if people had the security to leave jobs and try other things with a guaranteed safety net.

I do think there is a good argument for the citizen wage. Would allow people time out of work, at a very basic level of existence to educate, train and develop themselves. Let's face it most people hate going in to work for a job they don't like but are scared to make a change as most people are only a few pay packets from being g wiped out. I'm rambling on a bit but I do think something like the citizens wage would benefit the country and individuals long term.

we all make choices about what we do but it's not up to anyone else who works their own arse off (often in low paying jobs themselves) to be funding those who choose to follow their artistic dreams - this

Have a OP

I dont think the dole provides enough for people to live anything close to comfortably or "find themselves" creatively. Its a shit life of poverty at the bottom of the pile, and usually people end up on it after a series of bad choices, and some people never quite manage to pull themselves back again because the stigma of long term unemployment makes it harder to even get back into work later if they want to.
OP I think youve got an overly romantic view of life on the dole thats not really close to reality for the majority.

Having said that, I dont have strong feelings about or against dole-claimants. Id rather the system we have, and for it to be occasionally exploited, than what we have had in the past (workhouses etc) or for people out of work to have to turn to crime or prostitution etc

Moneybox on Radio 4 had a big piece about the Citizens Wage last week. It is probably still on iPlayer.

The key takeouts for me... No major functioning economy has ever done it, so it is totally impossible to say what would happen. Advocates for it say it would improve work/life balance, make life easier for those with caring responsibilities and improve social cohesion. Detractors say it would encourage fecklessness, but it is ALL guesswork. There is also potential inflation to factor in.
I also think it is utter bullshit that they can argue if everyone is on some sort of benefits, then there will be less stimatising of those on benefits. It was trotted out when the child allowance reforms came in, and it made no sense then either.

But the biggest thing for me is that the two advocates for it both admitted that higher rate tax would have to rise to in excess of 60% to pay for it. They couldn't agree on the exact rate, because the two of them had different opinions on what the payment should be, but implementing it at all would cost a HUGE amount.

I just can't see the case for making everyone that little bit more reliant on the state, and having such high taxation to pay for it. I'm not a fan of the US-style low tax, small government either, but this is just massively too far in the wrong direction and removes personal responsibility for far many people.

Apart from the fact that most people who get benefits at some point have probably paid more into the system than they ever take out, I am pretty happy to accept that about 90% of the population have to financially support the small number of people who cannot or will not work for whatever reason. I see nothing horribly unfair in that. 'From each according to ability', and all that.

DH and I send money to family in another country every month, because they're struggling. If we didn't, we'd be better off, but I'm really happy and proud that we can help them and I feel the same way about people I don't know.

I guess it helps that I've worked for social services and I know that a lot of people are expected to find and hold down a job, based on the fact that they can walk and move both of their arms, even though they have (sometimes undiagnosed) learning disabilities and mental health problems and are always late everywhere because they cannot tell the time or read a bus time table.

Personally, I'll gladly pay for these people to live on whatever meagre amount it is they get, if that means they don't get hounded to death by the sadistic and evil ignorant bloody DWP.

I agree with the OP. Dole for a while can be good for artists and creatives to find their voice. Not all but some.

I was lucky enough to have benefitted from being able to attend Art College in Central London 25 years ago,(without paying tens of thousands of pounds for it). I along with the 3/4 people I went to college with whom I've stayed friends, with had spells on the dole getting our selves as well as our showreels and portfolios together. Within a year/18 months of graduating we've all been working, paying plenty of taxes and national insurance.

There's a lot of shortsighted meanness about these days!

I think anyone who is not disabled/ill or caring for children or adults should work. I think it's a travesty to all those who are unable to work but want to to say otherwise.

We already have a citizen's wage for those of pension age. It's called the flat rate state pension, increasing to £155 a week on 6 April, but only for those with 35 years of NICs.

I do wonder how a lot of people are going to manage in fallow years before state retirement age, with the structural changes that are playing out in the labour market.

A 'citizens wage' combined with active labour market policies - lots of compulsory, decent standard, retraining targeted at areas where there are still jobs, does make quite a lot of sense.

Instead in this country, we prefer a policy of exceptionally low benefits, incentivising people to take whatever job comes along, however short term.

The bottom line is that it's cheaper to do this so we should do it.

There are far too many tales of sanctions for benefits (when people are at job interviews or in hospital, or caring for a sick child). Plus tales of rudeness or workers trying to diminish who people are.

Fuck all that. It won't cost any more and I'm sick of hearing about young people committing suicide after being 'shamed' for not being able to find work.

I can't understand how this wouldn't result in inflation.

Surely the majority of those doing menial labour would opt out and wages would rise?

Everyone loves the living wage, but then again, everyone loves cheap stuff.

In almost every place I’ve been employed, there has been at least one person who doesn’t work. Often, when I’m trying to do business with companies, I’ve encountered employees who don’t work. Ironically, the DWP seems to be almost totally staffed by people who don’t want to work. If these people were given a few quid a week to stay home, be it to be creative or to watch daytime telly, the world would be a happier place.

So true, Silent.

Most people who are very creative, and have the ability to be very successful also have an excellent work ethic. As such, they tend to work whatever jobs they can to get by or try and work within their careers. Many people working in music stores are aspiring musicians, aspiring DJs work behind the bar in the hopes of getting a chance, painters will teach art classes. Very few who truly want to make it in the more creative industries would be content with sitting on the dole.

The bottom line is that it's cheaper to do this so we should do it.
This is absolutely, categorically not true.
There are a few schools of thought on what this would cost, depending on what the wage would be, but the two leading campaign groups put the net cost at anywhere between £60 and £100bn
That's billions, and that's after taking into account the savings from not paying other benefits.

To put that into perspective, the cost of the NHS is around £100bn a year. So we could double the provision of the NHS, or we could people to do nothing.

72 quid a week?

Yeah and the rest....

What about housing benefit/council tax/prescription costs etc?

This - it's not just the dole.

I do think there is a good argument for the citizen wage.

I like the idea, but in reality I think all it will do is force prices up. As soon as there is more money around, companies will feel they're able to charge more for goods and services.

It would be better to have some sort of voucher system (rationing here we come! ) such that they can be exchanged for the essentials: food, shelter, heating, clothes, etc. Any of the "lifestyle benefits claimants" in the current system would just end up spending a citizen's wage on booze or fags or drugs or computer games or whatever rather than on stuff to better their situation so they'd still end up needing further support.

I knew a lot of people who were artists, musicians and creatives that lived off the dole back in the 90s. What was interesting though was that, as a rule, they didn't produce very much work at all. In fact, I still know someone who is doing this now. The total sum of this work over twenty years? A few unpublished short stories.

In my experience, creatives are more productive when they have other demands on their time or firm deadlines (even if they miss them). The lack of structure that often comes with being on the dole can be deadly for artists and writers.

https://policy.greenparty.org.uk/assets/files/Policy%20files/Basic%20Income%20Consultation%20Paper.pdf

Green Party don't think so sparechange

Their proposal is that it doesn't cost more than current payments.

Quite detailed coatings in that paper, the disability benefits stuff looks very well covered to me.

OP - have a

Think your grasp of economics could be better... How in God's name are you proposing to fund this? Which patsies will be working to find people being creative?

Also; I think the maths industry is suffering as all the bright people go into fs to make their fortune. This usually involves very complicated ways to rip people off, trading in nano seconds to make millions. But that's another topic.

The maths industry? what's that??

And do you mean financial services, or traders on the stock market? If the latter, there are very few of those. And if the former, FAs are being sunk under huge piles of paperwork which means it's no longer cost-effective for them to sell many smaller investments such as ISAs. Paperwork takes 2-3 hours. So not really coining it in...

I hate the current benefits system with stupid sanctions and Tory cunts, but I don't think your idea is anywhere near workable, and I say this as a 'creative type'. I'm working in minimum wage jobs I have very little interest in to fund my Masters, alongside writing plays, devising Theatre In Education/Applied Theatre projects and trying to keep up some experience of performance too.

I'm choosing to go into this field, even temporarily (want to work in the emergency services eventually), so that's a sacrifice I have to make. Same for any creative. I can't expect everyone else to fund me to sit in my pants at home waiting for the next great play to suddenly sprout forth from my mind.

Eh laurie?
According to that link, the Greens reckoned it would cost £330 BILLION to give everyone a citizens income
And abolishing benefits would save £160 billion.
That leaves a £170 billion shortfall per year. That's nearly double the NHS budget every single year.
And that would need to be paid for by tax rises, starting with every working person losing their £11k personal allowance in exchange for their £4600 citizens income (on top of any child benefit, tax credits etc they are losing)
So immediately, every single working person is at least £6k a year worse off, all so some 'creatives' can have a better work life balance? Do you remember how well it went down when the Tories said they were going to make people a grand a year worse off with tax credit reforms?

Under part 34 I that document it says cost : 331 billion

Savings :331 billion ( only half of that is existing benefits, rest abolishing other things)

So it's a countable cost but a wash according to them if we get rid of other things like personal allowance.

It also seems according to the examples provided of case studies that having the personal abolished won't make their actual income go down compared to now (as its made up by other factors)

Personal allowance abolished

What a totally terrible idea.

I'm a 'creative' professional. I think I spent the total of 3 weeks on the dole back in 1994. Then I worked in retail jobs until my creative work was enough to sustain myself. I now earn very nicely, but it had nothing to do with having creative 'head-space'. It was sheer passion and tenacity. I know peers now who still float around with a new idea every week that they never actually put into practice.

I always get itchy when people cite Scandinavian countries policies as a source of all evidence of good ideas. The UK has well over 60 million people and growing fast. It's hardly a great comparison.

Glue, "by Norway I do mean Finland

That is such a great phrase, may I nick it? I'll swap "for cute read stupid" which is a great phrase we use to describe one of our cats. Any good to you?

Sorry to derail a bit, op, but I couldn't pass that one by.

I had Norway on the brain. Go ahead and use as you see fit!