To think taxpayers shouldn't pay for people to learn English?

[angelos02]

£20 million to be spent on this. If you move to a country you ensure you can speak the language surely? It is being spent on female muslims not that I think this is relevant.

[toomuchtooold]

pipistrella, I'm a bit about the level of integration that you seem to expect from foreigners in the UK. OK your neighbours sound antisocial - the driving license stuff etc - but I don't get why you have a problem with them hanging out with their compatriots and speaking their native language in their own home. I bet you don't care much about the activities and social life of your other neighbours who're British.

I live in Germany, I speak English to my kids (in and out of the house, I watch the British telly, and I hang out with my work/language class friends and friends we know who moved over here, and mostly we all speak English together. But we pay our taxes and keep our garden tidy, we're on friendly terms with the neighbours, and the kids' German is improving at Kindergarten. I don't feel obliged to do anything more - we're not causing the slightest problem for the German state by keeping English going in our personal lives. I went in German classes for around 5 years all told and I can speak it to B2/nearly C1 level so it's not an issue when speaking to people - I daresay I would integrate faster if I was working but Kindergarten/school here is still very much geared towards having a parent at home and we haven't been able to find wraparound childcare yet so ironically enough by adopting the (south) German way of life I'm actually less likely to integrate.

DH and I have lived and worked in a few European countries and the UK is the one with the least provision of state-sponsored language classes. We always figured that was because it's so difficult to function in the UK if you don't speak English that immigrants were forced to learn it one way or another. Places like e.g. Flanders, they tend to be very generous with language lessons because it's the only way they can get people to speak the language (because English and French are so widely spoken). The UK is very sink-or-swim as regards speaking English and this 20 million will be a bit of a life raft for people who wouldn't otherwise learn English despite really benefiting from it.

Incidentally, you already need to be able to speak English to get citizenship or indefinite leave to remain in the UK (with exceptions for a number of vulnerable groups).

[toomuchtooold]

Zorion I was going to say German too! Especially it's intuitive for English speakers. English is basically a mess of badly pronounced French and nicely pronounced German.

[unlucky83]

Two things - according to my DP (born and raised in another EU country and has lived in several places around Europe) English is the easiest language to learn....he thinks it is why it so widespread and 'you don't need to learn another language because you will find an English speaker wherever you go'...(his opinion not mine...)
And it is rude to speak in another language in front of someone who doesn't understand. And I am all for being bilingual and being able to speak your 'birth' language at home ...but you do need to have consideration of others being made to feel uncomfortable. (And people who think someone doesn't understand will say things about them they would never say otherwise - my best eg is discreetly bf DD1 at Edinburgh festival on a cafe terrace, two French girls had a conversation about how disgusting it was and shouldn't be seen in public etc etc - they were shocked when DP basically told them (in French) they were being rude...)

[blaeberry]

I think English language (and culture) classes should be compulsory for all immigrants unless they can show a good enough level already (in which case they should just have culture lessons). i think learning English is essential to integration and part of the reason to make it compulsory is to avoid men saying their wives cannot attend and preventing them integrating.

[Allthetreesaretall]

Yanbu. They cut services left right and centre but find £20 million to teach English?! If you can't speak English then your friends/relatives should teach it to you. Who voted for these Conservative idiots?! It should be the same as in France, no translators. I have friends from other countries who learned English themselves and got great jobs, if you're that inept that you can't learn the language of the country you chose to live in then I can't see you getting a job either...

[Pipistrella]

I didn't mind them hanging out with their compatriots and speaking their own language in their home.

I did find it uncomfortable to think that almost everything they did, and everyone they spoke with, was part of this closed community.

I'm not exactly sure what I'm trying to get across and I'm still so cross about it all that I am rambling, so I'm sorry that I've not been very clear.

I think my point was about integration being a concept that doesn't always occur even when people do have a grasp of the language in question.

Sometimes people just don't really want to integrate. English people living in Spain, other people living in the UK. And it becomes more of an 'us and them' situation, then, because each side possibly perceives a resentment that may not even be there.

It isn't all about language.

[MistressDeeCee]

I think this is another of those plans that sound brilliant and worthy on paper, but in reality is a load of hot air regarding supposed inclusivity. How are they going to target women who don't speak English, and get them access to lessons? There are already adult education centres and numerous other places here that offer free basic literacy/ESOL courses. If these ladies aren't attending these courses now - and particularly in London you are never really far from an Adult Education Centre - then why will they attend these new courses?Or are they going to set up a raft of classes for female Muslims only and even then.. attendance?

This I have to see

[Natsku]

Nowt wrong with speaking your own language at home or even out in public. Its not rude to speak in a language people don't understand - its rude to try and listen in to someone else's conversation!

[LurkingHusband]

Presumably, if taxpayers are paying for English lessons, an equivalent amount is being removed from any budgets for interpreters ?

Or is this another "heads you lose, tails we win" sleight of hand the UK seems to be so good at when it comes to feeding the pork barrel ?

[KC225]

I moved from Uk to Sweden last year with my Swedish husband. Once you have a personal number everyone is allowed access to SFI (Swedish for Immigrant) classes. Refugees (once registered) are required to go. It's 3 days a week 8.30 to 3.30. Childcare is provided. New Mothers are allowed 1 year maternity leave. As I don't claim any benefits, I can drop in and out whenever but for the refugees it is treated like a job, if you don't turn up your benefit money is docked. Illness has to be reported to the office and is noted and fed back to the benefit office. The course lasts around 3 years with various stages but people have done it less and some take double that. One of the classes is for people unable to read or write in their own language.

It sounds harsh but the SFI teachers are great and make the classes interesting. Refugees are also able to access other services there ie further education, translation and imigation services not to mention making contacts and friends. I noted the OP comments about muslim women. Giving her the benefit of the doubt maybe she thinks they will do little with 'english'. I know some of the Somali women on my course would not be there if they were not required to - I have been told this personally by them, yet they are there participating in the class and doing very well and learning the language and local customs.

In terms of fitting in, empowerment, ease and enjoyment of life, learning the language is important. As stated previously, 20 million is not a lot in the great scheme of things and employment will also be generated in terms of language teachers etc.

[blaeberry]

Forgot to add, I think these classes should provided free of charge with some classes having a free crèche. I am sure it would save a lot of money in the long run.

[Zorion]

unlucky I think your DP is saying different things there - it is certainly probably the most useful language to learn in that you will use it the most when you learn it.

But it is far from the easiest. Just look at the word "get" in the English part of any bilingual dictionary. Phrasal Verbs are the work of the devil. And the pronounciation/spelling problems (through, thorough, though, bough, cough, thought etc). I do love it though, and really enjoy teaching it. The reason it is so widespread is historical, largely due to wealth and the empire. For those of us for whom it is our native tongue, we are so, so lucky.

I agree about speaking your birth language in front of people who don't speak it. DH and I (both English) live abroad, but we converse as best we can in our local language when in front of a native speaker of our host country. Even if we know they speak English we start off in the tongue of the land.

[Natsku]

Sounds similar to how it is here in Finland KC225. Its tied into immigration benefits here so you have to turn up every day (mon-fri 9-3 or lose money). They taught us Finnish language, Finnish culture and history (the culture bit is very important for immigrants from vastly different cultures), 9th grade (so about GCSE level) basic maths and science as some immigrants had very little previous schooling and even some English.

Now with the refugee crisis they're upping their game a bit and teaching about sexual culture too!

[WillBeatJanuaryBlues]

It causes huge strain on services the police , justice , health , education constantly haveing to provide interpreters

tampon, I do not know of another eu country that does provide translators to the extent we do.

At one point it was insane. I would love to know Labours budget for translators. Because I knew some and they were making AFTER the agency took their hefty fee, £30 upwards per hour.

In France we had a mini emergency there was no help, no pushing towards interpreters!

I am not saying its right not to provide them but you said "having to provide" when we don't the Uk chooses too. .

[LumelaMme]

Really, OP?



This instead:
I get the impression some women in immigrant communities are isolated and vulnerable. We need to support them and give them a voice.

[Slimmingcrackers]

"How are they going to target women who don't speak English, and get them access to lessons? .... "

...."Or are they going to set up a raft of classes for female Muslims only and even then.. attendance?"


MistressDeeCee I'm not in the UK but in another European city and that is exactly the brief of the charity that I am involved with, and that is exactly what it does. The classes are specifically for Muslim women. We provide craft classes and hwk clubs for their young dc while the women attend language lessons (also funded by the charity).

It's not hot air. Many of the women go on to further studies and we have three of them graduating this May as fully registered nursing assistants (who in turn will go on to earn, help support their families and pay taxes here).

[WillBeatJanuaryBlues]

^ I have a feeling this more about whats its about Lumela.

[WillBeatJanuaryBlues]

slimming thats really heartening!!

[BarbaraofSeville]

For context etc, I will start by confirming that I am white, British.

English is a comparatively difficult language to learn as a non native. I realised this when I took Spanish lessons.

Learning Spanish is a piece of piss by comparison. There are a few simple pronounciation rules and these are almost always stuck to without variation. Think about English words like rough, bough etc in comparison. We don’t have the logical structure – we have words that look similar but are pronounced totally different. We also have words that sound similar and are pronounced totally differently. And that’s before we get onto the use of there, their, they’re etc. Half the time, it seems like half the natives don’t know how to use words like these FFS!

I also have a lot of insight into the lives of immigrant muslim women mainly from Pakistan as one of my relatives is married to a man of Pakistani origin, so I know a lot of his relatives quite well as I’ve been to a few of their family gatherings.

In my city, there are a lot of people of Pakistani heritage that live mostly in one particular area and most of the women are SAHMs who speak Urdu at home day to day they can get by quite well not speaking English.

They shop locally in Pakistani owned shops and even places like doctors, dentists and schools may have Urdu speaking staff. Some may speak English and some may not, or not very well as their lives mean they don’t need to practice.

They have an immense sense of community, which is fantastic from a support point of view, but if they ever need help outside the community, they are stuck if they cannot speak English – so this is why I think it is important particulary for these women to have access to free English lessons and that they are encouraged to take them up so they can live more independently and are not dependant on male relatives for every aspect of their lives.

Obviously it would be ridiculous to deport people who don’t speak English, especially if they haven’t had the opportunity to learn. And the amount of money suggested is relatively trivial and there will be savings to be made if fewer translations are needed.

[LurkingHusband]

There's also the fact that English is the widest spoken language in the world, which tends to suggest that the need for interpreters in England should be less than say (as mentioned upthread) Swedish - which (no disrespect) - is hardly so widely spoken.

[hedgehogsdontbite]

I'm currently learning the native language of the country I live in. I've been here 8 years and am still struggling with it. I'd be up the creek if they started throwing people out after a couple of years.

In my class there are a lot of women who are way behind the men as far as language goes. For me it's because I have a communication disability but for rest it's because they have had little or no education prior to arriving. The lady who sits next to me is in her 40s and this is first time she's ever been to school. Our teacher has had to teach her how to hold a pencil.

I believe this is going to have a worse impact on women than men.

[enderwoman]

I had language lessons courtesy of the tax payers in another country where you can't expect the dozens of free language translators available in the UK. It helped build confidence, make friends and eventually employment which meant I learned far more about how that culture and country worked.

I find it strange that only Muslim females have been targetted as I see people from other countries and religions who would benefit from this and £20m seems a pretty low figure to me. The secondary school that my children go to is being expanded by 60 places per year and is getting building work costing in the millions.

[Katarzyna79]

this issue is about muslims though and very discriminatory. I heard of it on bbc radio this morning and nearly spilt my dads tea.

There is no correlation between Muslim mothers not speaking English and kids being radicalised, yet Cameron has just made a stab in the dark and said there is.

I think anyone regardless of faith should learn the language of the country they are in so we can get on better and it makes life easier especially at work.

my parents came here in the lates 60s on a work scheme for my dad. my parents were never as fluent as me, but they learnt enough to get by, they didn't lack confidence.

Cameron is basically saying muslim non English speakers can't come to the uk but if you're not muslim and can't speak English you may, sounds like muslims are being targeted here.

Also what makes Cameron think muslim mothers and father can't speak in their mother tongue and raise their kids to be good citizens in society? English is not the only language to achieve this. my parents spoke to me in Bengali and I've not become radicalised because no English was used, it's a pathetic connection to make.

No studies have been carried out it's just conjecture, and just as ridiculous as what Donald Trump said.

The fact remains those muslims becoming radicalised are doing so in secret groups and meetings away from their normal groups of friends or family's knowledge. Their parents learning English will make a difference to their own life, but it definitely wont make any difference to preventing their kids from becoming radicalised. All the parents can do is educate and guide them like any good parents, and when they become older they will do as they please even if they make the wrong choices it's unfair to keep blaming muslim parents like we have all the answers?

[Katarzyna79]

yes enderwoman exactly I find it strange too. But my husband was just saying to me the other day how will our kids live here in 10 years time. Will they have to pretend theyre not muslim, wear no symbols of their faith, even headscarfs so they're not treated differently?

To be honest I don't feel comfortable going out alone here anymore. people are just more racist here anyway. if I was in Edinburgh id feel different I feel safer there, but here where there are more ethnic communities tensions are higher and people seem more ignorant they love their cheap tabloids here, they will attack, and ive heard of many attacks on muslim women. my own son was verbally attacked and he;s just 9 years old.

husband said we should move, but I said why, and where to we were born and raised here this feels like home ive not ever been to south Asia, and even if I did I don't think id see it as home. why should we be forced to move we've done nothing wrong. But I understand his feelings there is however no safe haven.

[Mistigri]

The young muslims being radicalised are mostly second generation immigrants who speak english as a native language. This is also true in France and Belgium where there is much less tolerance of and help for immigrants who don't speak the host country language(s).

Katarzyna so sad that you and your children should feel under threat :( What sort of society are we turning into that shows such intolerance to children on the basis of their religon and (let's be honest with ourselves here) skin colour.