Charged £90 for being 3 minutes late to collect children from nursery

[Justastorminabcup]

3 minutes late! I thought I was on time. nobody said anything when I arrived, they just sent me an invoice in the post.

I can understand that they need a system to prevent parents regularly being late. They have a business to run and staff to pay etc, but £90!?! For three minutes! How can they think this is reasonable???

I've used this nursery for 4 years and have never been late before.

AIBU to be utterly shocked that a childcare establishment who must know that many parents struggle to be able to afford daycare for their children could feel it is acceptable to charge such a fine? Is this normal? Would other care providers do this?

Tiggy never realised that! So nurseries are literally fine to have children later than their opening hours? Mad that there are so few nurseries open later, if the insurance is the same cost and the demand is there (which I'm sure it is) you could make a killing!

I admitted I was wrong, yet you insulted me. I was mistaken and admitted it. No need. I was wrong! Please don't call me nuts. It's completely uncalled for and insulting.

I believe that is the case. It's what I've been told by managers.

Penalty clauses are unenforceable under contract law and it is an unreasonable charge. A better way to deal with lateness is have a proper discussion about breach of contract with persistent offenders and threaten to withdraw childcare provision. But I work 45 mins away from nursery. If I wanted to be sure I'd never ever be late I'd have to build in an hour's contingency every day to allow for unforeseen difficulties with transport. That's simply unworkable for me and luckily our nursery has never quibbled over a couple of minutes on the rare occasion public transport has let me down. Of course the staff have commitments too and mustn't be taken advantage of but a bit of understanding and decency helps the world go round more smoothly. One of the things I hate about mumsnet is the support for petty bureaucracy and rules from schools and nurseries - cf the school dinners vegetable thread.

Excellent post longesteverlurker. Sometimes I think how great it would be to run a business with MN'ers as customers. They will accept ANYTHING and I could make loadsa money

Do you pay for your children to be there until 4.30?

If so & it was past that time then you were late collecting, regardless of what time the place closes.

longestlurker I agree entirely - I never used a nursery, for various reasons my DC had a nanny, and then went to a childminder. There were occasions where they were collected up to 15 minutes late, I was never charged, nor would I have expected to pay, a late fee. Certainly not for less than 5 minutes.

Unless you work within walking distance of your childcare, have a 'cushion' of 10-15 minutes in collection time (ie you finish at 5, you need to collect your DC by 6, and it's a 45 minute walk), and have the kind of job where you can and do down tools on the dot of your finish time, it is impossible to guarantee you will never be a couple of minutes late.

In the OP's case, I'd simply refuse to pay, and tell them to sue me. I'd be very surprised if anyone had ever actually paid such a nonsensically high late fee, which is clearly punitive rather than based on any genuine cost of lateness.

Exactly. Someone earlier said if you finish at 5.30 and are 30 mins walk away you should get flexible working and leave at 5.15 for safety. When in reality, the person in question is probably already utilising flexible working to leave at 5.30.

I flexible work until 4 and pick up at 5. When I have been delayed i have got there around 5.50-5.55. When you commute and use trains/ motorways delays can be massive. What do they suggest, I try and leave at 3.30 just in case? Ridiculous. Bye bye job.

I'd be saying you assumed there was a typing error as it can't be a penalty of £90 when you were three minutes late, given nursery didn't close for a few hours then shut up. See what they say.

If this is the first time you've been late in four years, then we can safely assume that the rest of the time you've been picking the kids up at, say, 4.25 rather than 4.30. I'd be tempted to add all those five-minute slots together, work out how much you've overpaid them in three-minute-early collections over the years and, with a steely gaze in your eyes, ask to be reimbursed.

Surely punitive fines in contracts are enforceable? That is exactly what car parks do if you overstay. Parking fines do not in any way reflect costs.

Also dentists frequently charge large amounts if you miss your slot.

It's a hazy area admittedly, but I would compare it to banks who used to charge you ie. £40 for bouncing a direct debit or going overdrawn. A test case ruled that that was a made up figure which is no way reflected the costs incurred by them. They now charge £8-12 in the knowledge that although the could still chose to charge you £40 they would be unlikely to be able to justify it in court.

Car parking- local authority parking is regulated by by law. However private car parking is currently going through some test cases so maybe in the future a court will decide that they can't justify charging people £60 for staying a few more minutes.

I would put the nursery situation closer to the banks. However ultimately the best thing for a nursery to do would be to simply refuse to provide child care after the first late, which if it were such a desperately awful situation is exactly what they would be doing. The reality is for the majority of times they're there anyway and don't mind mopping up a few minutes here and there for additional revenue.

Most charges are nothing more than a figure pulled out of the air. You can pay or refuse. Whether or not they would be agreed in court is usually pretty irrelevant unless you get to an enforcement position. Which the nursery are unlikely to do for £90.

I work for the NHS, can we do the same? And ratchet it up to £200 for a DNA?

Was popping on to say what longestlurker just said.

Void as a penalty. You could also rely on Unfair Consumer Contract Regs.

I would:

1. Ask them to review their procedures on lateness. Notification/confirmation should be explicit at the time of the incident, then followed up with paper work. This avoids any 'nasty surprise' element and leaves both parties in no doubt as to how genuine a claim may be ;)

1. Suggest that additional charges for lateness should be compliant with the law and cannot therefore be a penalty.

1. Apologise for being 3 minutes late on X day, explain that you will not be paying the £90 due to (2) state you look forward to receiving their revised policy on lateness at their earliest convenience.

Our nursery only charges £3 per 15 minutes, I've just checked the info book.
I assume they don't get many people late! We're quite rural so traffic isn't really a problem.

I think charging you that is outrageous. If you've been going for years and never been late, I'd have thought they'd let you off out of goodwill! That said, I do see a place for stiff penalty fees if they have a problem with parents being late, and I suppose they have to have a blanket rule.
It does seem excessive though for short periods.

Charging for less than 10 minutes is unacceptable and this is just extortion. Don't pay it.

£90 is just so disproportionate for the time you were late. Yes charge you, but that amount is madness.

I would send a letter in which you:

• apologise for being late
• point out it was 3 minutes and you have never been late before in 4 years
• say that you understand that they need to have charges for lateness but £90 for 3 minutes and first time of being late is hugely disproportionate and you doubt it would be legally enforceable
• say that in these circumstances you trust they will not be pursuing the £90 fee

And then see what they say... I suspect they would not chase it further...

A pound a minute. Faints. What a total rip off. There should be a difference between charging for a one off and persistant late comers. You ought to name and shame them in rip-off Britain. £90 for three minutes amounts to criminal extortion IMHO. Check it isn't a typing error.

Wow. I used to be back to nursery late all the time due to a bus that sometimes didn't turn up. Nursery NEVER charged me, despite it being very clear in the contract that they could. £90 is outrageous.

Yes, as the lawyers on the thread are saying penalty clauses can be void although a recent pretty high parking charge was upheld by the supreme court so it's not certain the charge here will be invalid.
You might want to offer to pay a lot less instead, explain in writing it was just 3 minutes (which could easily be the difference between one person's watch and another )

This is just odd.
Wonder what will happen next .........

£30 a minute is £1800 an hour!

How can they justify that amount...and they were still open ffs! What a terrible way to promote good will between nursery and parents.

I'd do what I suggested earlier and sobriety on this page said...remind them of all the times you picked them up early and how much they owe at £30 a minute.

I wouldn't pay it...but that's me...you'd have more luck getting blood from a stone.

Exactly deo gratis..three minutes is nothing and definitely could be the difference between one watch and another.

Petty and mean.