Traffic Post HELP ME PLEASE!

[BetsyMalone]

Sorry this is long but I need to give background ...

Dds are 6 and almost 4. We DO disciple one them - we use time outs , take away screen time etc . But ...

They do not listen to me or respect me. The eldest even tells me that she doesn't have to do as I ask if she doesn't want to .

I collected her from school today - a rare treat as normally she goes to after school club .

From the minute she realised I hadn't brought her a snack , she was rude to me , refused to talk to me about her day - I just got eye rolling and one line shouty replies .

If I ask her to do simple tasks, she growls in my face in anger , says no and stamps her feet .

The youngest has regular tantrums . She also demands that I or daddy do things for her - if I'm free to help her and daddy is busy , she will demand daddy help her and refuse me . She will throw herself on the floor and kick and scream .

I've had enough . Sometimes the demands and tantrums start from 5:30am .

Tonight I called eldest for teeth brushing , she came then decided she needed to go get something from downstairs . I said she could wait until after teeth , she ignored me and went anyway !

She then refused to brush her teeth so I told her to go to her room - she refused so I had to carry her in whilst she was laughing and clinging to the door .

Youngest then went in to her room and started having a tantrum because I wasn't immediately free (DH went to her ).

She started kicking her furniture (she does this often ).

So I told them both no story before sleep tonight .

Youngest is currently having an epic tantrum and is crying her eyes out for a story . I'm ready to cave .

I told eldest no faffing with soft toys before bed (she did this last night and didn't go to sleep til late - I didn't realise as she was quiet).

She asked me to dress one of her barbie dolls she keeps near her bed . I said no it's sleep time and we will do it in the morning . I told her to put it away .

After dealing with the youngest again , I went back to eldest's room who was sitting dressing the bloody barbie !

So I took it and put it away myself . I told her not to ignore me and left the room .

She then got out of bed and retrieved the doll to take back to bed !

So again , I took it and put it away explaining she can have it back in the morning . I have left her with her favourite bears and barbies she has on a shelf next to her .

Well she has gone ballistic ! She is screaming , crying , telling me it's her favourite one (I don't think it is ) . She is sobbing . More screaming . Refusing to settle .

I've tried to comfort her , she shouts at me more . I've ignored her and she's still going .

I feel bad . Really bad . But I need to follow through don't I ?

She rarely gets this upset .

What should I do ?

I am really doubting myself here so please be gentle !

Oh and with the back chat try natural consequences.

They back chat you don't like it therefore you will not engage with it.mtotally do not engage at all only intervien if truely needed (after explaining you do not understand rudeness) if needed physically remove them from what ever it is causing angst. But only engage with polite requests or attempted politeness (given ages)

I don't think withdrawing bedtime story is withdrawing love. But I do think you've got into a battle of wills with your DDs.

Have you tried the element of choice approach which ensures what you want and need doing gets done - as ultimately that is what matters.

When you picked her up and she started eye rolling and refusing to engage because you didn't have the snack id ignore. Id get home and start doing something. If she started being rude about lack of snack I'd just say "when you ask nicely you can have snack" then carry on doing something and ignore her. Do this for anything where she's rude because you haven't jumped to her tune. Expect some escalation in behaviour but eventually she'll get that it will not get her a reaction or attention behaving that way but asking nicely will get her exactly what she wants.

With the daddy/mummy thing I'd go with the choice. Get each DD to choose who they have. Eg "DD1, who you you want to brush your teeth with?" She chooses, other dd gets other parent with explanation that they choose next time. Once choice is made there is no negation a or engagement in arguing. When they are with a parent and screaming for the other say "mummy is doing s with you now, when it's finished and daddy is free you can ask him to do y" it's about modelling how to get what they want.

When you need to do bedtime routine give a countdown. Right DD, I'm doing x now for 5 minutes and you can choose what you do. After 5 minutes I'm going to race you upstairs and you can choose to brush yiur teeth first or get your pjs on first.

I know it goes against many natural instincts not to demand and have your children comply but some personalities just refuse to respond to demands and you end up with constant battles becoming a war.
If you let them think they've won the battle but ultimately they do as you want you've won the war whilst they think they have

Just avoid ggetting locked into battles. Pick what yiu want to improve on first and work on that. Don't try to change everything at once and once you start feeling like you are engaging in a battle of wills all away and re think the strategy.

You aren't failing as a parent - no bad parent comes on a very public forum and asks for advice.

My ds has asd so I'm use to the having to find creative ways to get the job done

I also have a 6 year old girl and she is also a perfect angel at school, very concerned about following the rules etc. At home however, she can be a little madam! She tries the foot stomping, shouting at me etc, but we try to either ignore it (providing she hasn't been outright rude) or else she goes and sits in her bedroom until she has calmed down and wants to talk about it. I would say her behaviour hasn't been quite as bad as your describing (yet!) but if they help, these are tricks I have found useful:

• do I need to speak to your teacher about how disrespectful you're being (cue me getting paper and pen. This is the worst in her eyes!)
• do you need to have a star chart again like your little brother? (again, horrified!)
• if she refuses to tidy up (after I have asked her 3 times), I take a bin bag, put all her toys in it and it goes in my cupboard for a week. She can have it back when she starts to tidy up again (this has once over resulted in a LOT of things in my cupboard!). I don't get angry and if she screams, I just repeat that she had her chance and now she has to prove she deserves them back
• (if she won't get dressed): fine you can explain to your teacher and clasmates why you're wearing your pyjamas. (if she won't brush her teeth): I'll write a little note to your teacher asking her to go over oral hygiene with you (kind of thing, not sure I've ever had to actually say that one!).

But you get the idea... I find she cares a lot more about what other people think (teacher, friends etc) than what we do half the time, so we do use that alot (do you think X acts like this to her mother...etc) and the other thing (which someone else mentioned higher up) was that I've noticed she does mimic behaviour, both from TV and her friends. You may find there are kids at school who do this and she's 'trying it out' on you.

How is she with your husband? Does she act up as much for him?

And lastly, is she otherwise affectionate with you? I have ended up in a kind of spiral before where her behaviour has stopped me being affectionate towards her and that makes her behaviour worse and so on. It's hard, but I find she cares more what we think when we're generally being affectionate towards her.

Don't fight fire with fire. If she won't leave - then you leave -

Teeth need a chart - stickers for both girls - no sweets or treats the next day if not brushed

They have to have clear consequences - at school if they do X Y will happen - same at home - into bed for a story - choose not to get into bed - no story

Choose to tantrum over no snack - no snack tomorrow

Lots of great advice on here Op. I just wanted to add that your kids don't have to like you all the time. You're in control not them so stay strong.
If they lose a bedtime story as a consequence for appalling behaviour then so be it! Tough shit, as you would say to a grown up!
Mine are the same age and I've had some truly awful days with them like you have today. I'm hopeful the only answer is consistent parenting and not backing down until they grow out of it.
That and wine. Lots and lots of wine... Chin up mate! X

You sound fed up! I think also you're on your dds case too much and need to let go on some things and enforce in others but the key thing is consistency

House rules are a good idea and stick to them.

Pick your battles- don't let the little
Things get you down and maybe let a little more slide. You sound like your meeting all your interactions with exasperation and anger.

Wipe the slate clean and have a chat with your dd. Find things like you like to do together and do them. On days they are home from school have a snack ready and an activity. Have the colouring stuff out or the play doh or the Hama beads. Sit down with them and listen to her day.

If you know she needs a snack afyer school bring her something.

Wrt to the Barbie... I would have said "I've asked you to put that one away now, is she a special one- let's tuck her into bed while you get ready for bed- which stories would you like for bed?"

Try and empathise with her, share her feelings and give her strategies to deal with her anger outbursts.

what's a TRAFFIC POST??

TBH OP you could benefit from something like parent coaching - there are loads of people and organisations around who run courses and where you can get support. Might be worth looking for something in RL as well as virtual help?

You poor thing, you must be at the end of your tether tonight. So, first of all...breathe!

This isn't normal after school grumpiness or tiredness. Clinging onto the doorframe and laughing at you as you try to carry her into her bedroom is really quite serious naugtiness in my opinion. At 6, she should definitely know better than this.

I don't think you were overreacting by withdrawing her story! She needs to see that behaviour like this has real, immediate consequences.

What I'd in your situation is sit down with your girls and draw up a list of rules. Get them involved and talk about why these rules are important. Tell them how their naughty behaviour makes you feel, and also emphasise how proud and happy you are when they behave nicely. Agree a system of rewards if they follow the rules, eg a smiley face every day that they've followed the house rules, and when they get 5 smiley faces they get a trip to the sweetshop/ extra long story/ a trip to the swimming pool etc.

If they are naughty and break the house rules then they won't get a smiley face, but also there will be a punishment. Agree the punishments with them... Losing tv time/story/sweets etc. Agree that you'll always give them a warning before a punishment, so at the first incidence of cheek say "don't speak to me like that again. If you do you will lose your TV time." And if the behaviour persists, then follow through with the punishment.

Above all, be consistent. Nothing works immediately, but if you keep at it, it will work. Also, be effusive with praise whenever your girls behave well. Let them see how happy it makes you.

Disclaimer...I'm no expert. Just a mum and infant teacher who has watched her fair share of Super Nanny! Basically we're all just muddling through and doing our best. Just keep on doing your best!

Sounds tough OP, you have my sympathy. I can recommend Triple P - see if your local Children's Centre offers courses. They are designed for your very situation and although not everyone's cup of tea the course is really really helpful and will help you regain control. Your girls love you to bits but they are properly misbehaving and you can turn it around, but act now.

I'd talk to them about their behaviour tomorrow. Ask them what they think about it and if they think they behaved ok. Ask them what they think you should have done. I'd then have another talk a bit before bedtime

I think removing the bedtime story was fine. I'd have done that.

I used to choose my battles to some extent but generally if they were going through a shitty stage I'd clamp down on everything. I used to reward good behaviour by letting the little stuff go. I think that the opposite to what other people say but it worked for our family. My DC are adults and were very rarely rude or defiant. They did squabble though

Try the Parent Coaching Academy (.co.uk)

Occasionally, if my 2 start to push boundaries too hard, I implement what I call our "short leash".

This is getting back to basics. I am very clear with them about expectations re (for example) brushing teeth, getting dressed for school etc. And then it is up to them. All extras in life stop until they remaster the basics.

If I have to put all my energy into supervising things they should be doing themselves without drama, then I have neither the time or inclination for organising the more fun and exciting things in our lives.

Tv gets dramatically reduced, (not that they watch very much anyway) or doesn't even go on ( they then read or play which is fine). Screen time/iPad etc stops completely. They need to speak to me nicely and respectfully.

Teeth brushing issues = nothing sweet at all until they can show me they are looking after their teeth well.

Rudeness and backchat etc = no play dates, early to bed, strict lights out etc.

I make it very clear I will
Not be running around facilitating treats and fun times for children who are rude and disrespectful.

Gosh I sound bad ass. But really this works. We all get on pretty well, and have lots of fun together. But yes sometimes things slide and I've found nipping it in the bud, very effective.

I def check what tv DD1 watches - the attitude of some of the characters.

Usually I will read bedtime books. But I have withdrawn them a few times when they have been very rude to me or refuse to listen or do what they know has to be done. It's not about withdrawing love - its about letting them know I am a person with feelings too and if I'm feeling upset because they have been ghastly to me, I'm not going to matyr myself.

Personally I think sometimes it's ok to say no, not acceptable and respect is a 2 way street.

Works very well for us.

I find you can get in a vicous circle with this sort of thing. The more they wind you up, the more you get frustrated with them, they get frustrated with you etc.

Do you get to spend much time with them?

I ask this because I feel like I spend all my bloody time with my kids, but sometimes it's only when we get stuck in a cycle of behaviour like this that actually I realise it's because they haven't had 'enough' of me in one way or another and so are acting up by being rude. Then when I try to make 'special' time they would always sabotage it because they felt overwhelmed and couldn't handle it.

Just you saying you picked her up from school instead of after school club as a treat - it sounds like a case of she was actually really pleased but didn't know how to deal with her emotions so acted out.And hungry and tired too.

Sometimes just finding five to ten minutes of something they want to do, or really listening, can make all the difference, they open up to you a bit more, are more willing to do things for you.

As an example - I felt like I was spending loads of time with my ds, getting toys out, getting paper and stuff out, finding this, answering questions about that while making dinner or trying to get him ready for bed, but actually when I thought about it I hadn't actually just stopped what I was trying to do, or get him to do, and given him really full attention, being silly, chatting about whatever, drawing cars for him. Whenever I remember to do this, little and often, behaviour always improves and there is less frustration all round, until I forget again.

Hope some of that is helpful.

Also "Playful Parenting" I found quite useful. It's not about making games t of everything, but it is a reminder of the level small children are operating on and some ideas how best to reach them. It's got some good ideas which I've fund effective in the past, if I remember to use them, and before I completely run out of patience.

When either of your girls are being rude to you OP the best thing you can do is ignore,I know it's really hard(we have 5DC and 2 of our children are autistic)but children prefer to have attention even if it's not good attention.

So if you speak to either of them and they're rude to you,you tell them that it's not acceptable/nice which ever language is best for your girls and tell them they need to say sorry to you then leave it,then if they stop and say they're sorry great,if they don't then remove your attention from them and what they're saying to you.
Just walk away and get on with whatever you were doing.
It will come as a shock to the girls at first so be aware they are going to try really hard to get a reaction from you even if it's a bad one,but try and stick with it it does work.
If it's going on for a while say 10-15 minutes then just repeat what you first told them that the way they talked to you wasn't nice and they need to apologize.
It could take a week and I know when your in the midst of it all that can feel like a lifetime.But it's worth sticking with it especially whilst your girls are so young,once they've learnt the behavior you want from them it's learned and it will just become second nature to them to think about the way they speak to you and other people.It's a good way for young children to learn about empathy and how other people feel about things.

I also do love bombing which is really effective.

I have a just 7 year old - she can be evil (I also have an 11 and 13 year old)

I ignore a lot of the after school crap - if she wont talk to me I leave her to it - if she's rude I ask her not to be rude - if she rudely demands something she does not get it until she calms down and asks nicely

I have a reward chart for the bigger things - nice bath, going to bed calmly, not kicking 7 bells out of her sisters etc

I try very hard to be calm, never shout when she is shouting (it forces her to shush to hear me!) and walk away

I would really ignore some of it - let her push back a little and loosen the reigns - so if she's going down stairs to get something at teeth brushing time - let her - as long as she comes back up and brushes her teeth other wise it's and instant no win stand up row - let her win the little battles - save your energy

I also find changing the way I ask helps - so rather than 'go and brush your teeth' or 'time to brush teeth' I might say 'when this program finishes you are going to brush your teeth yes? Then we'll have a story ? Brilliant - good girl.'

avoid a power struggle as much as poss. When in doubt what to do, repeat what they shouted at you in a very quiet loving tone, ;;You want to play with your barbie, DD1/2" She replies still loud :yes I do" You say :I know you really want to play with your barbie, but barbie is getting sleepy i think" She gets a bit less loud and so on Can also role play e.g. mum says 'i'll be barbie. Who will you be dd1/2?" Barbie says "I"m sleepy. dd1/2. Tell me a story" And so on all on the theme of sleeyptime.

I have DDs of the same age and I could almost have written your post OP. Back-chat, sulks, screams, running away when asked to do things, not getting ready for school, not getting ready for bed, a fight to get teeth brushed. DD2 cried halfway home from school today because I wouldn't carry her school bag she has to ask me as though I am a real person, and use words like 'please' rather than just flinging her bag at me. We discussed it all last term

They were better at the end of last term (DD2's first term of school) and then it went to pot over Xmas holidays. I'm taking the firm approach to their procrastinating; we go to a soft play before their swimming lessons once a week and if they waste my time I will waste theirs and we sit in the car for 10 minutes for every offence. I warn and count first, and they can redeem one 10 minute block with outstanding behaviour (usually bedtimes). They've only ever lost 20 minutes total.

Poor behaviour on school runs (we cross 2 busy roads) and they don't earn a small treat on the Friday afternoon. Not going to their clubs and participating, they don't get a sticker that adds up to a small purchase on days out.

I keep each thing separate so they don't lose everything because of one incident, and I prefer to reward good behaviour rather than take things away (playzone being the one exception).

We do spend lots of quality time together, today we played with lego for ages, DD1 planning the layout of a city she would like to build. DD2 with the train she got for Xmas. But when it was time for bed they start shouting that it's not fair. Grrrr. Teeth grinding moment.

If this sort of behaviour is dominating your household, you are probably needing to implement some changes for the good of everybody.
Echoing pp, go right back to basics. Work out between yourself & OH what your standards are, then draw up some rules and some clear consequences; write them out, draw them out if needs be for the dc's and hold a family meeting where everybody is clear about it all. Then stick to it. Always follow through with the consequences, until they firmly realise that you are not to be challenged, questioned, cheeked etc.
Of course at times of stress, emotional difficulty, tiredness etc, there will be times where you need to be flexible; but ultimately, they need to know where they stand and treating you with such contempt really isn't ok.
Good luck, OP.

Op, my DS is also 6 and the same as your eldest. I am hoping it is a phase! I know it is worse when he is tired and /or hungry.

Sometimes I just count down the minutes to bedtime.

What does work, it tag-teaming With DH. If DS is like this with me, DH takes over and tries a different approach. If he is like it with DH I take over.

My Dad observed that DS was being backed into a corner as soon as he started down a particular road. He then digs his heels in. The other person taking over gives him am escape route.

Not sure if that helps you, but the musings have helped me

With the not doing what you need them to do weather it's brushing they're teeth or helping put they're toys away ect I found that really praising them for all they do to help Mummy before they've even done what you need them to do has been a great incentive with my 2 daughters(they're 12 and 8)it can sound really over the top sometimes but it has worked and they haven't even realized that they're behavior has changed or that they're now helping out where as before they wouldn't do anything to help.

If either of your daughters are demanding for you and your DH is seeing to them or are demanding for Daddy and your dealing with them,who ever is with the girls should explain calmly that the other one is busy and then try and carry on with what your helping them with/what they're Dad is helping them with,talk to them about what your doing together,talk about things they like to do or something fun you've done together recently it's a distraction technique and it usually works most of the time.
If the distraction doesn't work but they're just moaning then I'd just carry on with what your doing with them.If the distraction hasn't worked and they've started being rude to you or they're hitting out or chucking stuff around then I'd give them one warning that they stop or you won't be able to help them no more,if they don't stop then you/your DH walk away and tell them your come back and carry on helping them once they've stopped and said sorry.

With the bedtime story I agree with the others it's best not to remove something that's relaxing and to do with a structured bed time as it can cause a restless nights sleep for you all.
With the barbie if it was one of my girls I would have said okay you come with me and brush your teeth for Mummy and then we can dress your barbie together and have a nice cuddle and a bedtime story.Things like that you can use as your barganing chip,that way your DD feels like she's the one who's got what she wanted and you've managed to get her to do what you need her to do and the end of the day has ended in a calm happy way.

The other thing that helps is saying "yes". DS asks "can I watch TV?" instead of saying "no, you need to do your homework first" I say "yes, after you have done your homework"

Subtle, but removed the conflict.

You asked for tips. These are my thoughts. I'm certainly not the perfect parent (far from it!) but I have done behavioural management as a teacher and have managed to get my DDs through to mid and upper teens without too much drama! But be easy on yourself. No one gets it right all the time.

The two things that stand out to me from your post are 1) pick your battles. Take a breath and ask yourself if it really matters. I had a policy (still do with my teens) of saying yes unless there is a really good reason to say no. And 2) if you do engage in battle, the consequences need to be logical (related to the action) and you must follow through on them.

From the minute she realised I hadn't brought her a snack , she was rude to me , refused to talk to me about her day - I just got eye rolling and one line shouty replies .
I would have probably said we will have a snack when we get home and refused to enter into any further discussion about it. Once it became clear that questions about the day are met with eye rolling (this happens a lot with most children, or grunts, or Nothing Much) I would walk along in cheerful silence or comment on something completely different that requires no answer. Don't take this personally; children are often tired, hungry, uncommunicative and a bit stroppy after a long school day.

Tonight I called eldest for teeth brushing , she came then decided she needed to go get something from downstairs . I said she could wait until after teeth , she ignored me and went anyway !
This is an example of picking your battles. Try cheerfully saying "OK, get it really quickly then as we need to do teeth now". They will procrastinate, hurrying them through that to a certain extent and not engaging with it is sometimes a better bet.

She then refused to brush her teeth so I told her to go to her room - she refused so I had to carry her in whilst she was laughing and clinging to the door .
Did she refuse because of the previous battle? You might have avoided this with letting her quickly get what she wanted. However, I put on my serious voice on over this sort of thing and say, "now come on, you're a big girl, you know you need to clean your teeth. We don't want them to go all brown, do we? Let's go and do it." The communal 'let's' is hard to refuse, especially if you try to stay firm, calm and cheerful. And there is a really good reason for doing teeth, not just you being bossy mummy, which she can be reminded of. It takes a bit of the wind out of her sails putting it this way, and removes some of the conflict.

Youngest then went in to her room and started having a tantrum because I wasn't immediately free (DH went to her ).
Better to call out "I'm busy now but I will be in as soon as I've done x" and then completely ignore the tantrum. Go in as promised when finished as if the tantrum was not happening at all. If DH goes in you are rewarding it. Strange though it may sound, if you react negatively you are also rewarding it. Ignore.

She started kicking her furniture (she does this often ).
Ignore. Or just divert, "go and get your story, then", or if she keeps on say "you will break that bed and then where will you sleep? Oh dear." Try to keep consequences related to the action.

Similar with the Barbie doll. I would have probably let her dress it quickly. If she went on and on delaying with toys. I would give a small time warning, maybe 5 mins to go and come back, with the cheerful expectation the toys will be away. If they are not away then is the time to explain that the Barbies will not be able to be in her room at night if they stop her going to sleep. This is a logical consequence and if you have to, follow through on this, take them well away somewhere, and don't give in. Say you will try again in 2 night's time and see if she can do better. Expect -and say - when you give them back that she will now know that the Barbies cannot stop her sleeping.

In teacher training I remember a lecturer saying "when you ask for something to be done, expect it will be done - and mostly it will" It's a difficult mindset to get into when you're used to requests being met with screaming tantrums but it does work (I think it changes the way in which you ask). Cheerful, calm and firm definitely helps as a mantra.

I really hope this all doesn't sound horribly sanctimonious - just you wanted ways you could have done it differently. We ALL get times with our children when we think we handled something terribly - made a punishment too severe or were walked all over. It's a learning process so don't beat yourself up. We're all just muddling through best we can, at the end of the day

sounds normal, i'm having fun with my 6yo lately!

Most of what you're describing is just boundary testing and typical after school grumpyness.

i'm afraid i ascribe to the old fashioned school of 'mean mommy' and i use the old 'you have until the count of 3 to stop X or Y will happen"

i count to 3, if what X hasn't happened, then Y does.

i never threaten something i'm not willing to carry out, and eventually they learn that mommy means business and by the time i've counted to 2, they comply!

In tonights situation, after going in and finding her playing with the doll, i would have said "You have until the count of 3 to put the doll away or i will remove it until tomorrow." and then counted.

i ignore tantrums largely, unless they go on too long, in which case i will deploy the "you have until the count of three to stop that noise or you will be spending 10 minutes in your room/in timeout/whatever" because tantrums are about attention, and making them go do it in their room removes that ;)

OP - all,children have moments when you think "did I make that little miracle" and times when you think " what was I thinking?" 😅