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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask what UK parents really think of school uniform

737 replies

longtimelurker101 · 10/01/2016 18:23

Relating to the thread on school uniform and hair dying. What do parents really think? Do you support the idea or would you prefer that schools across the U.K went non-uniform and had no rules regarding appearance?

OP posts:
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reni2 · 11/01/2016 01:27

including petty rules about the colour of hair accessories. Not that free and equal between staff and teachers.

reni2 · 11/01/2016 01:28

staff pupils

CultureSucksDownWords · 11/01/2016 01:29

It does sound a lovely school, great for those who can afford up to £30,000 a year. I wonder why they can develop a less hierarchical atmosphere than a typical state secondary school? Is it the lack of uniform, or is it the small class sizes, high teacher to pupil ratio, state of the art facilities etc etc?

SenecaFalls · 11/01/2016 01:37

I think that some Quaker schools in the UK do have uniform.

Also in many Quaker schools, teachers are addressed by first name or possibly Friend Jane, etc. It's also part of the Quaker ethos (I'm drawing from what I know in the US here) to work toward consensus among students, parents, and teachers about rules and other issues in Quaker schools.

reni2 · 11/01/2016 01:39

There is a uniform at Bootham in York, so it can't be that.

The Obama girls' school might not have one, but only a quarter or so of US schools do.

If uniform has no influence on discipline, attainment etc (I am ready to believe that) I find it hard to see that the lack of uniform changes anything. I went to a non uniform school. It was hugely competetive, disciplinarian and totally hierarchical. It would have been with uniform, too. We were allowed green hair and nose rings if desired though.

SenecaFalls · 11/01/2016 02:09

It's not just about uniform, I agree. It's about broader attitudes and the ethos of a school.

sleeponeday · 11/01/2016 02:11

I don't know of any Quaker schools in the UK that don't have a uniform.

The only Quaker school in the UK that expects children to address staff by their first names, that I know of, is Leighton Park. The rest all use honorifics, which is certainly a bit odd as that is in itself a bit of a controversy for Quakers.

Quakerism in the States tends to be very, very different from that in the UK, too. Some Quakers have ordained clergy over there, and practice programmed Meetings for Worship, which is so different to any understanding most British Quakers might have that it's hard to see it as the same denomination, tbh.

I'm from a Quaker family, went to a Quaker school, and plan my two to attend one at secondary, in an ideal world. Though the costs, even as day pupils with a large enough age gap to avoid overlap, may make that impossible.

Want2bSupermum · 11/01/2016 02:14

I'm in the Us and the schools here don't have uniform. I would find a uniform so much easier. Every night we pick out an outfit and in the morning DD changes her mind. Totally normal for a 4 year old. Oh and I send her in clothed. If she wants to wear her princess or party dress I let her. I have to get to work and pick my battles accordingly.

I pray our school district adopt a school dress code which here in the US is as close to a uniform as you are going to get.

sleeponeday · 11/01/2016 02:16

And when I say "I don't know of any" I mean that Bootham, The Mount, Ackworth, Friends Saffron Walden, Sidcot, Sibford, Leighton Park all have uniforms. I may be missing some, I don't know, but all the ones I know of wear uniform until 6th form (one stops doing that at GCSE, maybe?).

The underlying ethos is lovely though, to my mind, anyway. Big focus in valuing the individual and nurturing independence of mind, the importance of social justice, kindness, and all forms of non-violence. Not a lot to quarrel with there really, is there.

SenecaFalls · 11/01/2016 02:26

And it's that underlying ethos that is so important.

sleeponeday · 11/01/2016 02:59

Sure, but it doesn't have much to do with uniforms, or indeed abandonment of hierarchies. Most Quaker schools are also very hierarchical. I even went to one which made all girls wear skirts to formal events, when women teachers could and did wear trouser suits. Wink

passion4pno · 11/01/2016 03:16

I'll start by stating I live in Australia not the OK.

Uniforms are a necessary part of life and prepares students for the workforce. It also helps that every one looks the same in school

BoomBoomsCousin · 11/01/2016 06:09

OP If children are often behaved a particular way when out and about and their school can easily be identified then that does shape my view of the school. I have no intention of sending my children to the secondary they are most likely to get in partly because the attitudes that I have observed lead me to believe there isn't a culture of academic excellence. But this is backed up by other information from the school though, including the exam results they achieve and work I have seen when on the premises. It's not just the many times I have heard students making nasty remarks to each other about doing well.

It's difficult for behavior to form a particularly good impression of a school though, because in most public situations "good" is just not being annoying to the general public. More of a neutral default than a positive impression. You'll get the occasional outstanding action - going out of their way to help someone out, say, but opportunities for that are more limited.

Uniform helps a bit in identifying the school. But I'm in London and other than our two closest secondaries, I wouldn't be able to easily identify students from their uniform. .

annandale · 11/01/2016 06:45

Passion4pno helps in what way?

nooka · 11/01/2016 07:18

longtimelurker you sound like you really dislike children. To use as an insult "whiny child" to someone who simply has a different opinion that you is really disdainful.

Your argument is also very "do as I say, not as I do". If one of the main arguments for uniform is that it prepares schoolchildren for the life of work, can you really not see the irony of a teacher (adult professional, presumably in a role that you hope your pupils might aspire to) who is apparently wearing what they like telling a child that they cannot possibly dress in a similar way?

Uniforms in adult life generally have only a few real functions. The first is to let the public quickly and easily know your role. Nurses, the police, military and some other service roles have uniforms for this purpose. The second is for safety reasons. Scrubs in operating theatres, and various items of protective wear generally provided by employers might fit that category. The third is to show hierarchy, a way to emphasise power differentials. Uniforms are also used for marketing, something that the OP seems to believe essential.

Personally I think that while the social leveler argument holds some merit, the main reason why schools in the UK use uniform is to show who is in charge. Especially at secondary school where a significant proportion of the children may well be taller than the teachers (at primary it's pretty obvious who are the children and who the adults), and perhaps unsurprisingly it's at secondary school where uniforms become increasingly arbitrary and pettily enforced.

Oh and as to your question. All the children in my town wear their own clothes. Unless I ask them I have no idea which school they go to. Plus when they are not under the control of the school why the hell would I hold the school accountable for their behaviour?

nooka · 11/01/2016 07:20

Oh there is one thing that uniforms do help with. Encouraging animosity between schools. Back in the UK I've seen a few fights between kids from different schools, plus children being bullied for obviously being from the 'wrong' school.

Witchend · 11/01/2016 07:31

I like uniform both as a parent and I did as a pupil.

It takes away the pressure of trying to be fashionable, have the right stuff etc.
And it stops any don't know what to wear feelings.

BeyondCBA · 11/01/2016 07:40

I dont mind uniform so long as its how mine was in school.

Hated skirts, wore culottes all through juniors (no uniform in infants)
In high school there was uniform but it allowed individuality. Black trousers/skirt, white shirt can be interpreted in so many ways - in later years i wore a fitted shirt and linen trousers for eg. And i dyed my hair from about age 12

My DCs school has uniform, and it is easier to not have to worry about them ruining good clothes, and to know what they are wearing without any thought. The school allows black trainers instead of shoes too. I'm dreading them starting an OTT high school (or even getting a new head) where I will have to pretend i agree with the stupid rules Grin

longtimelurker101 · 11/01/2016 07:52

Oh so now I sound like I don't like children? Don't think you could take that from my posts. I said the argument that teachers do it sounds like a whiny child, and it does, my children often used to try arguing that we stayed up later than them or could do x, y, z and they couldn't. So I'm pointing out that there are many things that adults can do and children can't for a whole raft of reasons.

If you read my posts you'd realise that I said I could go non uniform easily.

On power differentials and hierarchy, well there are both in schools aren't there? Students and teachers are not given equal decision making power or have the same level of consequence for their decision making. So complaining that uniform enforces this is silly, they would exist anyway. Hierarchical systems also exist within the entire education system do you think that this would change without uniform.

The marketing issue? I didn't say it was essentials I asked if uniform effected people's perceptions.

As a poll this is interesting, overwhelmingly for ujiofrm

OP posts:
Sofiria · 11/01/2016 08:13

I detest the idea of uniform and all the petty rules that go with it. I'd find a simple uniform item acceptable (something like a school jumper with logo) to identify pupils as belonging within the school, but the way it's enforced now is nonsensical and owes a lot more to the older generations' constructions of childhood/youth than anything else.

Part of growing up and preparing for the workplace is learning how to dress for different situations and following dress codes. I've never heard of any child attending a non-UK, non-uniform school who grew up and couldn't cope with the sartorial requirements of their chosen career because they hadn't been made to wear a uniform for 14 years in preparation. I agree with the point on the other thread that if it was about work preparedness then business suits and a certain amount of make-up on girls would be the expectation, not ill-fitting blazers!

Uniform is often overpriced and poorly-fitting (because young people's bodies aren't all the same shape! Imagine requiring all the women on this thread to wear the same skirt from the same shop in whatever standard size we're closest to. Some it would suit very well, and some would look awful. Most teenage girls are even more self-conscious about their bodies and looks than adult women.) The enforcement of some of the rules seems to owe more to John Locke's ideas about preparing a child for life through physical discomforts than anything else - blazers at the height of summer, no coats or boots allowed in winter, etc. The 'social leveler' argument strikes me as misleading - it's very clear who is wearing old or second-hand uniform, and children are generally aware of each other's socio-economic status and not in a state of ignorance about it. It's also part of life that some people are richer than others. If children are being bullied for this, it's the bullying that needs to be tackled, not the way pupils dress. Otherwise the bullies will just pick on something else about their victims.

A common argument is that children stress so much over what to wear on non-uniform days that it'd be a nightmare if every day was like that - but it's only that way because it's a novelty. In non-uniform schools in other countries (and in universities here), most young people dress casually. And someone dressing like a goth or having pink hair or whatever is only novel the first few times you see it. After that, it's just how Jane looks. Unimportant. Schools claim that they don't want young people to focus on their appearance and not their studies - this could be dealt with very simply through rules that you can't re-apply make-up or fuss with clothing during class. Instead, they make appearance more important to young people as they have little control over how they present themselves for much of the day. This is actually a common tactic in institutions, to want people to 'look the same' and discourage individualism. I disagree with this for philosophical reasons.

Lots of teachers don't want to enforce uniform rules and resent having to spend their time doing so. There are a few who are over-zealous about it to the point where it becomes a power game between them and students and that's good for nobody involved (my younger sister was sent home, missing a day's classes, for wearing the wrong colour hairband, FFS). Schools should be about learning, not about conformity, and I've yet to see a good argument that uniforms improve learning.

WutheringTights · 11/01/2016 08:16

I like uniforms, anything that takes girls' minds off clothes and makeup for a brief period has to be good.

This article is interesting, an Art Director in New York has chosen to implement a uniform for herself.

www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a10441/why-i-wear-the-same-thing-to-work-everday/

I work in a very smart office and what I wear matters at lot. I'm gradually reducing my wardrobe to just 4/5 complete "outfits" (only work 4 days a week) so I don't have to think about what to put on in the mornings, freeing up my time/mind for other things.

Only1scoop · 11/01/2016 08:17

I'm 100 percent behind a proper school uniform.

Dd is 5 and takes so much pride in hers already.

nooka · 11/01/2016 08:21

But there is absolutely no good reason why all teachers can wear trousers to school if they like but girls cannot is there? Or why children should have to have their top button done up, ties and blazers on when it's very hot in the summer and yet their teachers can wear something temperature appropriate like a summer dress. Or a proper coat while the children have to wear their blazers only. Some uniform rules are actively dangerous. So many have a requirement of a plain dark coat in the winter for example which contribute to children not being seen on their way to and from school and so being more likely to get run over.

And this sort of stupidity is justified because adults get to do what they like, but children should know their place? Any objection from a child (or adult as we see from this thread) that this all seems arbitrary and unfair is dismissed as 'whiny'.And then the teacher complains that they aren't respected? Too damn right!

Anyway my children seem to do just fine without uniform and the teachers appear to be able to teach, get good results and have good relationships with the majority of children. Here school sweatshirts are bought and worn on a completely voluntary basis (mostly out of school, often long after you've left your school) to show that you like your school. I really cannot imagine anyone doing that in the UK.

Seeyounearertime · 11/01/2016 08:21

I think the whole "Uniform" issue should change in this country TBH.

Near us there is a school that has a coloured shirt and logo. they insist that each item of the uniform has the logo.

So instead of the parents buying a simple white shirt and simple black jumper, they are forced to go to the one and only "Licensed" shop in the town and buy the overpriced rubbish from there.
£15 a shirt, £45 a blazer, £30 jumper, £20 Trousers, £15 PE Shirt, £15 PE Shorts. etc.
The shop has to offer a lay away service so you can pay bits into the account ready for September but it's not exactly helping the parents.

I believe their should be a uniform and that it should be 'uniform' across the country. Black shoes, Black Trousers / skirt, white Shirt / blouse, Black Jumper/cardigan. No logos, no odd colours, no enforced blazers.
No jewellery except simple stud / sleeper earrings but that more due to losing them or health and safety etc.

nooka · 11/01/2016 08:27

WutheringTights, voluntarily choosing to adopt a limited wardrobe of clothes that you like is nothing like having to wear a uniform selected by people who care very little about whether the clothes fit you, look nice on you, are comfortable, weather appropriate etc etc.

My father had a work wardrobe of two suits. He chose both of them (in fact they were tailored for him). Everyday he picked out a shirt and tie that he liked to wear with them. Contrast that to my sister who got to wear a bright pink blazer and skirt with a red and white striped tie every day. Or my friend who got a sludge yellow shirt with brown and yellow kilt. Or me in fetching polyester navy that fitted so poorly I got in trouble for being scruffy every day. You really think that's the same?

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