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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask what UK parents really think of school uniform

737 replies

longtimelurker101 · 10/01/2016 18:23

Relating to the thread on school uniform and hair dying. What do parents really think? Do you support the idea or would you prefer that schools across the U.K went non-uniform and had no rules regarding appearance?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Schwabischeweihnachtskanne · 15/01/2016 13:41

JoffreyBaratheon how hard kids are on shoes varies a lot doesn't it? One of my DSs was getting through a pair of shoes every two weeks when he first started school! Its playing football on damp grass every break then wearing the shoes all day I think... His shoes would just come apart - I bought him expensive respected brand leather shoes to start school - destroyed in two weeks - then branded trainers - lasted a week - supermarket trainers, a few pairs in a row - roughly two weeks a pair...

We get him specialist outdoor/ hiking brand trainers now - easier now he's in small adult shoe sizes - they look like trainers but with walking boot tech - or sometimes trainers made my a brand that make workmen's clothing with hardwearing tech. The shoes are €50-80 a pair and he is growing fast, but at least they don't fall apart like every other shoe and last til he actually outgrows them (and he can wear them after school and at weekends, and they are good for playing football in...)

My DD and DS2 don't seem nearly as hard on shoes, but neither are as compelled to play football at any moment that they aren't actually being forced to sit still...

I'm sure there must be hard wearing options in school shoes in the UK because their must be kids like DS1 in UK schools, but I must say its another reason I'm glad I don't have to work around uniform rules - its hard enough to keep him shod without! :o

Schwabischeweihnachtskanne · 15/01/2016 13:43

*there

FankEweVeryMuch · 15/01/2016 13:46

I love it. It's just so easy. My 7 and 5 year olds wear shirts and ties to school which I thought would be a faff but it really isn't. They look very smart in full uniform and have both mastered a half Windsor knot by age 5. It also saves money I think as I'd have to buy loads more clothes if they wore their own clothes.

While I don't want to dampen my kids fashion creativity there'd be wars here every morning. My 3 year old is obsessed with shorts and t-shirts and my 5 year old likes to find every item in his wardrobe of the same colour and wear them at the same time. Avoiding that is a massive bonus.

LiberalPedant · 15/01/2016 13:52

They are liberal, OP, in that there is a wide choice of what people can wear to school. And these include jeans, t-shirts, and hoodies, which is what most US students seem to wear anyway and that would be banned in the vast majority of UK schools (except on mufti days).

JoffreyBaratheon · 15/01/2016 14:00

So here's a question: Are a lot of those that are anti-uniform in that mindset because of the poor way they were handled with it at school? It seems that many folk who are anti it have a bit of an issue with the way they were treated, and on the contrary many who are for it found uniform helpful or them in the past.

I am anti uniform for primary and secondary, but especially primary. May be an age/generational thing. I went to a rural school - which now would be OFSTED 'outstanding' by default as only richer people can afford to live in such villages, but in those days it had two huge council estates and a very mixed demographic. The Victorian school was very old fashioned with some real old battle-axes for teachers, and strict discipline - but of course, as was usual then, no uniform whatsoever. I don't recall a dress code (apart from navy blue pants for PE!) but there may have been one. Oh the shame, my mum once bought me royal blue knickers - that was a trauma in itself!

At what is now Y3, the boys went to a separate Boys' School which did have a uniform; the girls continued at the old school, without. So my brother wore uniform and at the same age - I didn't.

Later the old primary schools were replaced with a modern, open plan, lovely new one where I did my last 2 years of primary. The contrast was stark - from the strict old Girls' School (no uniform) to the hippy open plan 70s' progressive school (no uniform). Very different schools with radically different approaches to education - the lack of uniform had no impact on our ability to learn in either a strict, old fashioned, academic kinda school and the modern hippy sort.

High school had a uniform. I was one of the poor kids so maybe that informed my hatred of it. It was no leveller. I wore the same (home-made) skirt for 5 years. Bri nylon shirts. They did allow you to wear any jumper so long as it was the right shade of blue so many of us had handknitted ones (much more practical and warm) although my mother was dead, so I didn't. I was bullied at school but that was nothing to do with my crap uniform. In fact when kids twigged that I had holes in my clothes, darned tights, etc etc etc - they were actually kinder to me. I'd have no reason to loathe uniform based on that experience. I just would like to offer a reality check - it is not, never was, never can be a leveller. It is the opposite.

Later as a teacher, as I trained, the Thatcher/Baker tory 'reforms' were coming in so perfectly sane non uniform schools were just switching over to uniforms. It was mad. The kids were well aware who was poor - just as we had been. They were well aware who was neglected at home; who had B.O, or greasy hair, or a 24 stone mum. Kids are cruel - they are also hyper alert to 'otherness'. They spot your mum looks weird when she comes to pick you up at home-time... they will remember that three years later at high school when she no longer picks you up. They are all perfectly well aware that so and so's dad is a rich builder; someone else's dad is on the dole...

I have taught in a posh school in the US (no uniform or dress code). That was great. I have taught in rough inner city British schools where the kids were poor as poor can be but the parents were still expected to shell out for uniform.

I have done causes on Parents in Education as part of a Masters in Education and uniforms is an interesting subject as they are often very popular with parents for all the reasons people cite above. But the reality in the classroom is, they do nothing to facilitate anyone's education. Ever.

They do however, please right wing governments and politicians who believe that making everyone 'the same' somehow may make them better, more compliant, future employees. Ironically it's quite a Soviet concept, when you deconstruct it.

Schwabischeweihnachtskanne · 15/01/2016 14:01

longtime I very much enjoyed subverting the uniform code when I was at school - I was known for my socks :o (yes I know, little things amuse little minds... it was a small, isolated school and we had to take our entertainment where we could find it :o) It was also a gauge of how teaching and non staff regarded you how much they'd let you get away with as you got higher up the school - some girls would be pulled up for the wrong length or colour sock, some wouldn't - others would get away with a non uniform shop cardigan... It was a boarding school and the pastoral staff and teachers let me get away with my chosen infringements but the deputy head didn't - oops...

As a school pupil I didn't mind uniform and enjoyed pushing the boundaries. I even thoroughly enjoyed leading a vocal campaign against the awful Sunday Best uniform (private school but with a lot of slightly eccentric or unusual parents who could actually barely afford it - lots bought the Sunday best uniform for their DDs at age 11 and refused to buy again when they grew, so lots of 11 year olds in A line maxi skirts (meant to be knee length) grew into 16 year olds in very oddly styled tight micro-minis!) I even got the history teacher to wear a badge supporting us (then I got sent to the head ...)

As I teacher before I had my own kids I was in favour of uniforms though not in favour of how much time we teachers were expected to spend enforcing it - I did not agree it mattered whether ties were loose or black trousers were the wrong style, I did not want to make children wear nylon jumpers in summer or care whether they worse trainers...

I changed my mind when we moved to a country without school uniforms for state schools and witnessed what a massive non issue it is, and how the kids from small ones through to the 18/ 19 year olds and all ages in between just wear a variation on jeans and a T shirt, and what kids wear isn't even on teachers radar.

Being a parent of school kids who don't wear school uniform has shown what a massive non issue it is and how all the things people assume uniform does are exactly the same in a system without uniform - the only difference is you don't have to buy uniforms and teachers don't have to waste time enforcing uniform regulations, and kids don't miss teaching time being punished for uniform infringements.

I also hate ironing. I'm glad not to have to iron school uniform :o

JoffreyBaratheon · 15/01/2016 14:02

*causes = courses. Damn you fast typing!

captainfarrell · 15/01/2016 14:03

I love uniform. It would put me off a primary or secondary school if there wasn't one.

It creates a sense of pride in their school.
It is a lot easier for teachers when taking children out on trips and excursions as they can be monitored/seen easily among the general public.
It saves a lot time for parents, staff dealing with inappropriate clothing.

captainfarrell · 15/01/2016 14:07

I went to a rural school - which now would be OFSTED 'outstanding' by default as only richer people can afford to live in such villages,

Rich families do not make an 'outstanding' school.

Schwabischeweihnachtskanne · 15/01/2016 14:11

Does it really "create a sense of pride in the school"?

That's one parents love, and a certain type of teacher...

But how deeply uncool if you're a kid...

Maybe it is true of 4 year olds - the age where you can still say II'm going to big school" and burst with pride.

But the entire point of uniform for pre teens and teens is to see how far you can bend the rules, to wear it your own way...

Surely older kids don't buy into the kind of pride in their school a uniform indicates (though they might be proud of it in other ways - the way you're sort of grudgingly proud of or at least defensive of your family ... despite no family uniform... or your town... despite no town uniform...)?

Ambroxide · 15/01/2016 14:12

It is a lot easier for teachers when taking children out on trips and excursions as they can be monitored/seen easily among the general public.

Since our school switched to uniform, several teachers have commented to me unprompted on how much easier it was before we had one. They used to wear hi-vis vests which were tons more visible than navy blue jumpers. And on one trip I went on a six year old new to the school followed an entirely different navy blue school by mistake and was lost for some time. That was fun.

captainfarrell · 15/01/2016 14:15

Yes I think a sense of pride and sense of belonging. For some children who don't have that sense at home, they can feel they have a family at school.

I think losing a child on a trip has more to do with poor planning and staffing than uniform.

Schwabischeweihnachtskanne · 15/01/2016 14:16

In favour of uniforms I think they are the reason Britian has so many great fashion designers.

You have to put so much more thought and energy into the little touches and tweaks and accessories and small fashion rebellions to express your individuality (or tribal identity/ clique) when all you have to work with is a nylon uniform and school shoes ... Its an intellectual exercise for the fashion concious... and as everyone says children who go to schools with uniforms concentrate and obsess so much over what to wear on mufti days, whereas kids who never have to wear uniform just pull on jeans and a t-shirt...

teacherwith2kids · 15/01/2016 14:18

Interesting on 'otherness'.

Right back on the first thread, I posted my own experience of being 'other' - 'other on its own' (uniform up to O-level): no bullying. 'Other plus weird clothes' (non-uniform up to A-level): bullying. It was as if the other children in my cohort could ignore a certain level of 'otherness', but once another marker of 'otherness', in my case my clothes, was added, that pushed me over the edge into 'bullyable'.

Interestingly, for my siblings, who went to a different school from me (a uniform worn throughout the age range) it was again as if a certain 'level' of multiple otherness was needed to become an outsider. One sibling was 'just' unusually clever. They were fine. The other was unusually clever, played an unusual musical instrument not often played by children, and very short sight. They were bullied badly.

So when we think of uniform as a 'leveller', no of course it is not. But for some children it may reduce the level of 'otherness' to a degree that will not mark them out as targets, whereas having non-uniform might add another layer to the 'otherness'.

However, I do wonder whether my generation's experience of 'non school uniform' is different. With the advent of supermarket clothing, brands such as H&M or Primark, even the proliferation of charity shops, the cost of dressing a child in decent, acceptable clothing is hugely less than it was when I was a child, when really the only way of accessing cheap clothing was to make your own or to haunt jumble sales. It is, I think, much easier to dress a child inconspicuously and cheaply in generic clothing now than it was 35-40 years ago. If I was at school now, and had to wear non-uniform, it would have been possible to be dressed in a way that made me less of a target, even on a tiny budget.

biboergosum · 15/01/2016 14:20

For us, they are cheap and easy (for the primary kid). Trousers for £4, and even the logo polo is £6 and the jumper £8, add in socks and pants and the child is fully dressed under £20 and could be under £10 if desired, non-logo is allowed. I buy 5 of everything, it lasts the year and they don't change after school, so fewer other clothes needed. I wouldn't mind a non-uniform school, it is a bit of a non-issue for me personally. But cheaper than civilian clothes.

If you truly don't mind what kids wear, why mind a uniform? You do mind. You want them looking better than in the uniform, which admittedly isn't the most attractive, even if it is really practical. Of course our school don't have ties and shirts and pleated anything, so we are lucky.

Schwabischeweihnachtskanne · 15/01/2016 14:20

Yes, if you don't know the kids by sight uniforms do make large scale school trips easier I suppose! :o I did once buy bright orange T shirts in bulk to give out to all DS1's friends when we did a birthday party at a fun park. It did make it easier for 2 adults to spot 20 specific kids among hundreds - primary schools could give out plain neon t shirts just to be worn on trip days for that and collect them back in at the end of the day though :o

JoffreyBaratheon · 15/01/2016 14:21

Ah I live near a tourist trap that has endless school parties wandering through town every day. These days they wear arm bands or brightly coloured baseball cap thingies when you see a school party. No need to wear uniforms all year round for the sake of one or two days a year. ;o)

It's actually difficult to lose a child on a school trip. I did a few and never lost one.

As for 'tribal identity' - or 'a feeling of belonging' or (pardon me whilst I wee myself laughing) 'pride in the school'..... er.... no. A class has its own dynamic, and identity - if anything that has been more true of the kids I taught who didn't wear uniform. Again, I think that's a common misconception. I might turn up to the pub wearing the same colour clothes as a mate - it wouldn't mean we formed a tribe.

green18 · 15/01/2016 14:21

i agree teacher . The chn that are really at the 'other' end of the spectrum in terms of poverty, still look poor and or dirty but there are the other 30% that uniform helps because they might not be able to afford the 'right' clothes but they can afford a clean uniform and school shoes and so they blend in.

MerryMarigold · 15/01/2016 14:22

So here's a question: Are a lot of those that are anti-uniform in that mindset because of the poor way they were handled with it at school? It seems that many folk who are anti it have a bit of an issue with the way they were treated, and on the contrary many who are for it found uniform helpful or them in the past.

I think a lot of anti uniform are people who have personally experienced and liked no uniform.

I never used to have issues with uniform until my ds1 went to a non uniform school. I actually liked it! In fact, I'd go as far as to say I was worried about him going non uniform. A lot of the parents were. But once we'd experienced it for a few months, there was no way we were going back. And it showed as the vast majority of parents with kids at the school, surveyed year in and out, preferred no uniform.

What has made me even more anti uniform is moving areas and now kids go to a school with a stricter uniform code; you know the dreaded cheap and nasty school sweathshirts emblazoned with school logo for a mere £23. And a ridiculous PE kit with school T shirt etc. (why you have to match during PE I will never know). This is not in an affluent area. I really don't know how or why the school condone this uniform. If they need to have anything, surely a relaxed polo shirt-and-red-jumper-plus-anything-appropriate-for-PE would be fine. I also started noticing this year just how much school uniform floods the shops. It is ridiculous the amount money people spend on school clothes, the space it takes up in the wardrobe, and the cost to the environment.

Schwabischeweihnachtskanne · 15/01/2016 14:23

captainfarrel why do you think its the uniform that promotes pride and belonging though? People feel a sense of pride and belonging about plenty of groups that don't have a uniform - people are proud of being from England/ Britain / Scotland/ Wales etc. etc. insert country/ Yorkshire / Cornwall / their part of London - they don't wear a uniform though!

captainfarrell · 15/01/2016 14:24

joffrey how intolerant you are of others' opinions. let me tell you a secret, other people might just disagree with you and you might actually be wrong. God knows how you ever got into teaching!!

captainfarrell · 15/01/2016 14:27

I think it particularly applies to primary school chn schwab. The schools that I have worked in anyway. The children loved to share a common identity. sure they all knew they were individuals but the school community, accentuated by the uniform with the school name and emblem made it more visual, which I think is easier for young children.

MerryMarigold · 15/01/2016 14:27

If you truly don't mind what kids wear, why mind a uniform? You do mind. You want them looking better than in the uniform,

None of those reasons. Did you read the thread?

For me it is money, time and space.

Money = kids need two sets of clothes, one for the weekends. (Let's face it kids have way more non uniform clothes than is required for just weekends, partly due to needing enough for holidays).
Time = I don't need to stress about having the 'right' clothes washed at the right time as they could wear anything
Space = Don't need the space it takes to store uniform (quite a bit)
Environmental Impact (see below).

Add to this they can wear better quality clothes which last don't get me started on school trousers which means less factory production and less waste too.

green18 · 15/01/2016 14:28

Flags unite countries in the same way. Identity, belonging. I agree with captain

Schwabischeweihnachtskanne · 15/01/2016 14:29

Joffrey I meant teen "tribes" (Townies and Geeks and Emo and whatever the labels are now - one type of kid wears their hair a certain way, tie a certain way, has certain preferred slang... extends to music of course... much easier to express when you can wear you own clothes, you have to work to do it in uniform but they still manage, tis a skill) I didn't mean that going to Newtown Upper School is a tribal identity expressed by wearing a certain tie and blazer combo.