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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask what UK parents really think of school uniform

737 replies

longtimelurker101 · 10/01/2016 18:23

Relating to the thread on school uniform and hair dying. What do parents really think? Do you support the idea or would you prefer that schools across the U.K went non-uniform and had no rules regarding appearance?

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Thread gallery
5
thebestfurchinchilla · 14/01/2016 16:59

joffrey here's a chill pill Wine

pieceofpurplesky · 14/01/2016 19:11

Joffrey we don't get many parents in the playground at high school. I will say again parents/pupils/teachers where I work like it and it is most definitely a leveller.

mathanxiety · 14/01/2016 21:32

Schwabisch -- I am Irish and grew up wearing school uniform. In primary that was a shirt buttoned to the neck, a tie and v-neck jumper, with a knife pleated skirt, plus a blazer for September and May outerwear and a school coat and beret for the rest of the year. In secondary I wore a v-neck jumper in the same colour as primary school, that could not have clashed more horribly with typical Irish colouring, and a contrasting v-neck blouse with an A-line skirt that was the same colour as the blouse, plus knee high socks that were the same colour as the skirt.

Years later one of the teachers went to a reunion of my class and told how she and all the rest of the teachers had danced around the staffroom when the question of changing the uniform was finally on the agenda. It is far, far nicer now, in its second round of change since the late 70s/early 80s. But it would be even better if it were to be abandoned altogether.

My DCs went to an American RC elementary school with uniform and a state high school with none. On out of uniform days in the RC elementary, choosing The Outfit was often a massive big deal. Plus there were all sorts of rules to abide by so threading your way through them and still ending up with something wearable was quite a feat.

Fast forward to high school, and they still had the mindset that wearing 'your own clothes' was a special thing -- for about a week. After that they were happy to wear whatever was on top of their heap, all except DD1 who organised her own laundry and had her weekly clothing planned in advance.

My DCs like to shop at thrift shops for their clothes. They often bump into people they know who are doing the same thing.

It really is not an issue, Lurker et al, that students wear their own choice of clothing to school. Mostly they end up looking incredibly boring.

Trixy, like Schwabisch, my DCs (4 girls and 1 boy) would be well able to understand that their favourite shirt once in the laundry cycle would not appear again for a few days. We don't have clothes that need ironing. Seasonal clothes are kept in our drawers and out of season clothes are in storage boxes

Lurker:
She just likes attacking and won't even acknowledge any reasonable points. Rather like arguing with a rather thick right wing republican.. oh wait.
As a matter of fact, I would rather bite off my right arm than vote Republican, but heyho.
If there were any reasonable points in favour of uniform I would be happy to oblige, but sadly I see none.

Piece, since most of the post you referred to as evidence that I know nothing about UK education was gleaned from the NUT website and a Guardian article citing ATL president Mary Bousted, then I fancy I am on pretty solid ground.

Plus like many Irish people I have a lot of relatives in the UK, some of whom are students and some teachers, some private and some state sector, among other professions, and I also have friends who have children in school there.

teacherwith2kids · 14/01/2016 21:52

"From a teacher's POV.... sorry but kids totally know who it is in the class smells/has nits/comes to school maybe in uniform, yes, but also stinking of wee from the pants they've worn for two weeks"

Then tbh I blame the school staff. There is no need - and no excuse - for leaving a child in that state in a uniformed school.

In the schools I have worked on, some really very deprived, clothes / child washing, provision of breakfast, and the provision of clean and washed uniform from the box kept for that purpose for specific children was routine (and in extreme cases, hairwash and nit comb, though that was very rare). As I said right upthread, pretty much the only reason I like uniform is that school staff can discreetly dress a child in clean clothing that looks exactly the same as everyone else's. If school staff aren't doing that for neglected children (while obviously noting the fact that they do so on the appropriate vulnerable child paperwork), why not?

longtimelurker101 · 14/01/2016 21:58

Math the fact that you sadly see none, proves confirmation bias, but anyway.

I'm done, done with this, with MN, waste of time and energy, whatever. Bunch of people stating opinions with no real opt to debate or compromise.

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longtimelurker101 · 14/01/2016 22:34

Oh and I must say, it isn't just cause of this thread, the whole thing reminds me of a bar where people aren't actually listening to each other but just repeating their opinions louder and louder in the hope that someone concedes.

I've tired to find some balance, to weight arguments, but its just not possible. Enjoy.

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LiberalPedant · 14/01/2016 23:13

I thought that's what you were after, OP. Opinions. It appeared that you were actually conducting an opinion poll. Or were you really hoping that all the non-uniform folk would be shown the error of their ways and be persuaded to changed their minds?

LiberalPedant · 14/01/2016 23:16

Oh and that "thick right-wing Republican slur" against math. That was really below the belt.

longtimelurker101 · 14/01/2016 23:21

Sorry, but Math really gets my back up because she doesn't accept any point other than those that confirm her own, much like others that when I lived in the US would do.

We had a poll, a majority of British parents back it, despite many of us saying that the rules should be better implimented, but that is disregarded by the anti uniform lot, or opinonions dismissed because it doesn't confirm theirs. Harldy fair, or balanced.

I said at the outset that I could give or take it, I've sought to defend reasoning for and against, but no anyone who backs it has to be wrong.

Its not a debate its a shouting match.

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longtimelurker101 · 14/01/2016 23:22

blah typos while sat on the Jubilee line.. great fun

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mathanxiety · 14/01/2016 23:26

I suspect it shows there are no good arguments for uniform.

.............
There is a great danger in teachers being too invested in the concept of uniform appearance and the assumption that children would feel dreadful if they didn't look like their peers, when in fact appearance is the least of the problems some children face.

longtimelurker101 · 14/01/2016 23:34

But Math, when people give their arguments for you just dismiss them based on your own opinion and experience and the others who back your opinion, and take into no account others based on their experience, therefore I could say that there are no good arguments for uniform couldn't I?

Admit it, there are arguments both for and against and both are valid!

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longtimelurker101 · 14/01/2016 23:34

But Math, when people give their arguments for you just dismiss them based on your own opinion and experience and the others who back your opinion, and take into no account others based on their experience, therefore I could say that there are no good arguments for uniform couldn't I?

Admit it, there are arguments both for and against and both are valid!

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longtimelurker101 · 14/01/2016 23:37

Sorry that should read against uniform.. this train needs to move!

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longtimelurker101 · 14/01/2016 23:41

So for example, the lady whose children went to the Lycee in London to cite one of a group of parents who have experienced both systems and prefer uniform. The many posters who said that they liked their uniform because they didn't have the clothes and the others who say the same for their children, the many posters who liked the practicality, the teachers who have worked in both systems and said they thought uniform was a good thing. All of their opinions, experience and expertise are worth nought, and you say: "there are no good arguments for uniform." Yeah you offer a balanced view.

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mathanxiety · 14/01/2016 23:43

A small majority of posters on a thread on Mumsnet back uniform.

That is not 'British parents' as a whole.

I am genuinely puzzled as to your problem here. What did you expect?

longtimelurker101 · 14/01/2016 23:50

Not according to this thread Math, its a majority, its a thread on mumsnet asking about uniform, it actually came up on the front page! The majority back it, at the last count in more than a third more were in favour than against.

My problem is that you won't acknowledge that anything else other than your opinion might be right. Even I have said that there are lots of good points against, but I think there are lots of good points for.

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longtimelurker101 · 14/01/2016 23:58

Oh and that you then make remarks about: "How poor are British teachers",or "More than one believes in the power of polyester". That sucks too.

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redbinneo · 15/01/2016 00:04

As a civilian who has to endure school kids on public transport, it's nice to know what school they go to in order to address complaints to the head teacher.
Without uniform kids on the street are just a bunch of young thugs.

mathanxiety · 15/01/2016 00:05

On the one hand there are people who have no experience of anything but uniform feeling that it is a good thing, and on the other there are at least two posters who have direct experience of both uniform and non uniform, one of whom is both a parent and a teacher. And there are people who have worn uniform themselves and while they have no experience of non uniform systems, they have clearly put much thought into their anti uniform stance.

Whose opinion and experience is most likely to be balanced and reasonable?

I personally found the arguments for uniform incredibly poor and often circular.

I'm sorry, Lurker, but I didn't find the examples you cited in any way convincing.

At least one teacher/parent who has seen both uniform and non uniform has been far more convincing in my opinion than any others who may have a different slant.

The Lycee is hardly representative of British schools as a whole. And the idea that you express when you speak of uniform as a leveller, and 'the many posters who said that they liked their uniform because they didn't have the clothes and the others who say the same for their children' is an issue that is not sorted by making everyone wear the same thing. Using clothing to paper over the cracks doesn't make the problems go away. The gross and crude materialism needs to be tackled head on. The envy, the tendency to belittle and bully -- those are the problems. Stuff doesn't cause bullying.

'...the many posters who liked the practicality' -- well I have done both uniform and non uniform, and with five children 'practicality' is my middle name, and you know which one I prefer.

I have many more reasons to object, most of which I posted on the other thread.

redbinneo · 15/01/2016 00:17

One argument for the enforcement of uniform is that it guarantees children at least one set of clothes.

longtimelurker101 · 15/01/2016 00:21

Ah well, I can't be bothered any more. I've read your view, acknowledged that there can be points in it. But you dismiss all other views other than those that back your own. Confirmation bias.

Good debate though.

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longtimelurker101 · 15/01/2016 00:25

But just as an aside, there were more than the Lychee lady who had experience of both, and teachers, buy yet again it suits you to pick and choose , I said that she was one of a good few who agreed, bad arguing.

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LiberalPedant · 15/01/2016 00:33

I've had experience of both, as a parent. I much prefer no uniform.

JoffreyBaratheon · 15/01/2016 01:17

It's not a 'leveller' by any stretch of the imagination. I used to overhear my kids' conversations all the time when I was a teacher and they were under no illusions that they were all the same. I think anyone who thinks it is a leveller is wishful thinking.

I'd be more in favour of it if it was practical - but it isn't. My sons would never choose to wear white nylon shirts and thin, synthetic jumpers for fashion/vanity reasons but my objections are that it is impractical, anyway. They are cold in winter, sweaty in summer. White shows the dirt. White is hard to keep looking as good as new for very long. The trousers are also thin, badly made - just would be a waste of money if they were half the price. And we have no choice, the school only 'approves' one local supplier or you buy direct from the school. They are not allowed to wear a jumper of precisely the same shade - as it doesn't have the school logo on. A few years back, they had a polo shirt and no tie instead of the shirt and tie combo they have now reverted to - and that was marginally more practical but still not something I or they would choose. So where's the point in that?

Ironically, when my son got home today - just after I hit send on my post above - he asked if I'd had a phonecall. I said no. He said the jobsworth (non teaching) member of staff who told him off last term for laughing in the dinner hall, told him off for wearing non uniform shoes. The brief was, shoes have to be black. Black allover. These are. But they have a tiny (maybe 2cm) logo on them from the manufacturer.

He only bought them last week and it's the first new shoes he has had in probably a year (he's a slow grower and tiny for his age). She threatened to phone me - knowing my opinion of her already, he said "Go ahead." Looks like she chickened out - or got distracted.

Be interesting to see if she phones me tomorrow. I have no intention of buying more shoes - tbh it is a struggle to buy them in the first place.

After all this bullshit - do my kids learn better, or learn more because of the colour of their clothes? No. Do the kids with wealthier parents look the same as those with less wealthy? No. Do the kids magically not realise social inequalities because they are all wearing the snazzy, matching nylon get-ups? No. Do the teachers truly care whether my son has a miniscule logo on his shoes? I doubt they give a flying fuck. I know I don't.

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