To ask what UK parents really think of school uniform

[longtimelurker101]

Relating to the thread on school uniform and hair dying. What do parents really think? Do you support the idea or would you prefer that schools across the U.K went non-uniform and had no rules regarding appearance?

I have experienced both. I went to a comp without uniforms myself. The girls certainly did compete on clothes.

A school that has a culture of bullying and one upmanship is not going to be any different with or without a uniform. Its the culture that needs to be addressed.

Children need to learn to give an receive a clear not, to talk and listen with respect, and to resist bullying.
A uniform doesnt teach any of those skills.

I think the consensus seems to be that kids will be kids (competitive, bullying and expressing individuality) whether they are in uniform or not. So let's all save a bit of money, a bit more of the planet, and a lot of space - and get rid of the darn thing.

longtime as pps have said this thread doesn't 'prove' anything as the majority of posters have no experience of a non-uniform system, and most of us are not terribly imaginative. As I said upthread, there was a thread a while back for people whose DC had experienced both - on that thread the majority were in favour of no uniform.

Knobbly I agree, the problem in my school was a pervasive bullying culture. Also the ones that were picked on most weren't necessarily the poorest, in fact those from the local council estate (on which I also lived) were often the most bullying because, quite frankly, it was like that on the estate too! The ones that were picked on were the quiet ones, the academic ones (boffin, geek), the conforming ones- and ironically, they were very easily picked out by having nice neat conventional uniforms bought by their parents! I honestly think some of the posters on here have no idea what goes on, or went on (I hope things have changed) in some of the not so great comps- and uniform went absolutely nowhere in tackling that.

I agree with you MerryMarigold that a uniform is not a silver bullet. It is not going to solve big social problems in school. I disagree that getting rid of it would save money. In our family it would not. For us it saves time, money and faffing around in the mornings. I like it because it is practical.

But a group of posters who have experienced both have expressed a preference for as well. So its interesting that out of each option there are going to be people that are dissatisfied.

I find hauling my sleepy dd into her uniform a complete pain- the buttons on the shirt, the tie (oh god, this is five minutes by itself), finding the right black socks, tying back the hair and clipping it (has to be tied in her case), the blazer which doesn't really fit under a coat but isn't warm enough in winter...

How can putting on a pair of jeans, a top and brushing your hair be more difficult than this?

My husband is from a country with no uniform, I obviously wore uniform. He finds, as do his family, British uniforms with ties and blazers quite bizarre. As in really odd. Standard clothing, like shorts and top in one colour, fine, but nylon blazer that can't really be washed? Utterly gross, someone should do a bacterial wipe (Kim and Aggie?) on it like they did with doctor's white coats.

So- in our house, one parent experienced uniform, one didn't, we both agree: no uniform as a preference.

It's a very small group in this thread, but my point is that you kerp reiterating that the 'overwhelming majority' on this thread are in favour of uniform - but it's a self-fulfilling prophecy as the 'overwhelming majority' will only have experience of uniform. Plus the fact that a number have backed up their reasoning with very woolly arguments such as having a bad time on mufti day = non-uniform is a bad thing.

My point is that most parents' point of view on this issue is so skewed (by lack of meaningful experience) it doesn't prove anything.

"In all honesty "finding bits that agree with you and ignoring the bits that don't" happens in every debate, that's why the "opponent" then counters by saying "but what about X?" Its how discussions like this go. Its a bit Pot/ Kettle to accuse other people of cherry picking (wow that is a string of mixed metaphors!)"

But this isn't pot calling kettle, because I have acknowledged and agreed with many points against uniform, or for exceptions to be made, and I haven't just selected the bits that confirm what I think.

So when we have people countering uniform the argument seem to be:

Lots of other countries don't have it and they don't have issues with bullying ( or they do, but British schools still have it despite uniform)

It costs less for uniform

Uniform takes up too much teacher time

It denies individuality

Some studies say that it doesn't improve attainment.

Which can be countered with other posters saying:

In their experience other countries/schools without uniform can be a lot more competitive on brands/having the right thing.

Your children must be clothed anyway and the reuse of clothes via uniform can mean that its cheap/many uniforms are cheaply sources anyway.

There is plenty of time for expressing your individuality outside of school/defining your individuality by what you wear is neither that great or that appropriate for school.

Some studies show that it has an effect on attendance of students with the poorer students being more likely to attend when there is a uniform

So where does that leave us?

As I said its a complicated issue.

BTW its interesting that a study came out last year that said that the cost of clothing, feeding, and paying for school trips for your child worked out at something like £4.27 per day over the £39 weeks of the year.

I think that's a fairly good return for your money.

My point is that most parents' point of view on this issue is so skewed (by lack of meaningful experience) it doesn't prove anything

The OP asked for opinion. Everyone gave their opinion. It proves what their opinion is and that is all that was asked for.

And actually most people do have "meaningful experience". In that they have quite a lot to do with schools. My school had no school uniform, my children's does, my nephews and nieces don't. My sister and I have observed the various issues with both ways and conclude that we prefer uniform. I like it a lot. That's my answer to the OP.

Backing I don't agree that most people do. Most Brits went to uniform schools and send their DC to uniform schools. The fact that you have more experience doesn't alter that.

I know that the OP asked for opinions. My point is that she is trying to make out that those opinions add up to something of value. If everyone responding had the breadth of experience that you do, they would. But they don't.

Most Brits went to uniform schools and send their DC to uniform schools.

Well this would be me - so moving to a none uniform school would be a unknown quantity for me.

I do have a child with eczema who does best with 100% cotton - it is remarkable how hard that is to find in uniforms - if not completely impossible with school jumpers with logos/badges on.

The more restrictive and prescriptive the requirements are the harder it is to get those and cotton. Last area secondary school pupils were put in isolation for having wrong black shoes or trousers - which seems mad but that is not having a uniform that is how they are implementing it.

I've already shared my (strongly anti-uniform) opinion and the reasoning behind it. Something else that I think needs to be noted, though, is the lack of choice. As the OP has pointed out, there are divided opinions. The trouble is that it's very easy for pro-uniform parents and pupils to find a school that fits their ideology. Those of us opposed to it, however, very often have no choice about going along with it, because non-uniform schools in England are a very small minority.

I've mentioned my younger sister's old school, with its very strict uniform policy. When they found that, despite the strict uniform, girls were displaying their individuality through schoolbags (fashion logos, decorating with badges, etc) they decided on a mandatory school backpack to be purchased (and not cheaply) from the school shop. So it's a question of how far schools will go before they realise that they can't make everyone the same.

I think this is a debate that won't ever be resolved because although it's about an issue that's relatively trivial in the grand scheme of things, it touches on people's key values -individuality, autonomy, equality - and the ways in which they conceptualise children and young people. And if we aren't in agreement about the underlying principles, no amount of argument will sway anyone to agree with the opposing side.

"Last area secondary school pupils were put in isolation for having wrong black shoes or trousers - which seems mad but that is not having a uniform that is how they are implementing it."

Totally disagree with isolation for things like this, its draconian and not helpful at all.

Oh, well, I'm done with this now so as a final bit:

I think there are valid arguments for and against uniform, but I can't forsee the British school system getting rid of it while the DofE and many parents ( and therefore the electorate) are in favour. As someone stated above, the maintenance of this status quo is relatively trivial in the grander scheme of things, human rights are not being repressed by it but if there are sexist/racist implementations of the policy it should be challenged.

Thanks for the input folks.

I like uniform, in the sense that it's there, we all know who is wearing what. However,
The stupid rules at high school re hair colour etc are ridiculous. Once at high school, kids should be able to start defining themselves and experimenting with who they are. I dont really acre about make up etc either. Things like earrings if the pose a risk in PE, is the only thing that should need to be addressed.
Also, i don't think everything should need a logo, and a skirt/trouser, shirt and jumper combo should be fine.

I'd be quite surprised if the majority of readers went to primary school with a uniform. When I was at primary school it was quite unusual to have uniform at primary - these days it seems to have become more popular. Perhaps I'm imagining that but none of the local primaries had a uniform when I was a child (apart from the private ones) - 70s and 80s I'm talking about. I think it has become more commonplace since.

Anyway, whether or not we wore or didn't wear uniform, we can form an opinion based on the various things we/our friends/relatives have experienced or observed. And the OP was asking for opinions which is what she's got.

i love it, no argument any morning, 2 seconds for my daughter to get a clean blouse from the cupboard.

Even if posters have no experience of a non uniform school everyone will have experience of dressing their DC in non-uniform clothes in the holidays and on the weekends.

It was such a relief when my two had to wear uniform, they knew exactly what they had to wear and just got on with it. No moaning about the favourite top not being clean or insisting on wearing something completely impractical or picking them up after my DH had dressed them in pj bottoms by mistake. Bliss!

I hated uniform when I was in school and even got a load of girls out on strike from school for a day in protest of not being allowed to wear trousers, however my views have changed now (but only on a practical level).

I am a single Mum who works full time and I find uniform so easy to deal with. No planning, no moaning that his favourite top isn't clean and it's cheap. Non uniform would only mean my DS wearing football shirts to school that cost me nearly £50 a go. Basic white polo from Asda cost me £2.

The argument that uniform means no bullying due to some children coming from a more affluent background doesn't really wash. My DS and his friends all wear the same uniform, but they all know which kids have parents with money and those that are considered poor.

trixy come off it - school age kids dress themselves. Its more hassle before they start school because they are little - your DH wouldn't be dressing your 6/10/ 15 year old (SN excepted in some case obviously) would he?

My 3 kids all choose their own clothes from their cupboard and dress themselves while I am in the shower. I wake them, I get in the shower, I get out, they are dressed. No uniform. They will be wearing jeans and long sleeved T shirts, or in DS1's course sometimes tracksuit bottoms (apparently the main reason to go to school is to play football beforehand and in the breaks) and a long sleeved t-shirt.

If they wear normal clothes every day it isn't novel or exciting or the subject of any great stress.

No DH doesn't mostly dress them unless we are in a rush, but he does help pick out the clothes. Not too hard to believe really is it?

I don't think non-uniform is particularly a novelty either for kids, that's utter bullshit, they wear normal clothes every day when they get home and all other non school days.

It takes about a minute for a child to pull on pants, socks, a T shirt and a pair of jeans though - even for my 4 year old. Uniform would take longer if it involved buttons up shirts and a tie, and be the same if it was a polo shirt. Where is the time saving? Where is the need for parental help for a child over the age of 4?

How does a polo shirt take longer than a t-shirt? Believe me it doesn't.

And you don't get the "I wanted to wear my start wars t-shirt today why isn't it clean?"

I've experienced both and believe me uniform is far far easier.