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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not get schools issue with dyed hair?

1003 replies

fitforflighting · 06/01/2016 13:29

I suspect I may get flamed for this but I genuinely do not get it.
They have a rule against earrings including sleepers. That I get especially with younger children or in sports were children can end up getting them at worst ripped out.

I can kind of even get extreme haircuts with big shaved stars or strange styles that look unprofessional and might not be allowed by adults in a professional work place.

But this week and last term several of senior age children who had dyed hair brown/red/dark purple etc were sent home from school to re dye or put in isolation by teachers with errr brown/red/purple dyed hair! One of the children's teacher has bright purple hair. It does not make her any less of a English teacher or lesson her professionalism in school I don't reckon so what is the problem for teens?

OP posts:
RiverTam · 08/01/2016 10:13

piece you seem to be forgetting (or ignoring or perhaps simply unaware) of the fact that you are currently teaching a cohort of children who were empowered by their school to set their own uniform. Surely it's obvious that their attitude towards it will be positive. But unless your school plans to continually let this happen, sooner or later you'll be teaching a cohort who had nothing to do with it and couldn't care less that the class of 15 chose it. Do you think there'll be the same enthusiasm for it then?

Gileswithachainsaw · 08/01/2016 10:21

And actually I'm Shock

that a schopl would agree that teh way to deal with a haircut was to allow him in to he humiliated amongst friends and classmates and then isolated.

Wtf.

what happened to "yes it's a hairstyle, your problem.is.....? quit taking the mock akd get on with your work I won't tolerate any bullying"

cricketballs · 08/01/2016 10:45

I started to write a response to Maths post a couple of hours ago, but during writing my comments, I thought that this was not relevant to the thread, therefore I deleted it. But, given your post River I will respond with my thoughts/experience (12 years secondary teacher including 5 as HoY) to the points made.

At stake is the question of whether girls are equals in the classroom or just viewed however subconsciously as a potential distraction for boys, and the disproportionate time and attention accorded to policing the appearance of girls suggests that schools believe that boys need protection from distraction and that they exist more for the benefit of boys than for girls.

The only policing of appearance of girls in regards to this point has been with regards to skirt length; this is not for the benefit providing protection from distraction for the boys, (who in my experience of the worst offenders against uniform rules) but of a decency aspect. I do not want to be able to see anyone’s underwear

The class of students most likely to be adversely affected by problems in the class environment is actually girls who are relatively quiet and well behaved but who are in class with boys who are unruly or who are actually rewarded for disregarding classroom etiquette (calling out answers instead of waiting to be called on, for instance) and attention-seeking behaviour (often met with humour by teachers, or treated as humour and acceptable), while girls' attention-seeking is considered inappropriate or too rowdy, and unacceptable.

Again, in my experience this is not the case; girls as well as boys call out answers, girls and boys will wait to be called upon, boys attention seeking behaviour can be considered inappropriate/rowdy whilst girls attention seeking behaviour can also be met with humour

Aside from outright and identifiable breaches of classroom rules that boys get away with and girls do not, girls tend to be the victims of a multitude of micro-inequities in the classroom -- they are asked lower level questions, they are given less constructive feedback in verbal interactions, they are called upon less frequently and are expected to observe classroom etiquette in Q&A sessions so if they call out an answer they are reprimanded, they receive fewer follow up questions or challenges to defend their answer, and immediate feedback for correct answers tends to be muted compared to what boys receive.

I have never witnessed this to be the case in any lesson I have observed and it definitely does not happen in my classroom. If this was truly happening then why do girls outperform boys in GCSEs?

Girls going all out for physical appearance is an issue because it shows that somewhere along the line girls have decided that they won't try any more in class, and they will focus instead on something that is almost 100% sure to get attention, and is completely fine up to a point in the world outside of school -- their appearance.

Remind me to tell that to the girls who do fall foul of rules such as jewellery etc who are on track to achieve higher than their target grades

Girls involved in fights and concerns about gel nails -- fighting needs to be explored. It is not ok for girls to be involved in fights as long as their gel nails aren't going to gouge out someone's eye. What are they fighting about? If fights are about boys then a school urgently needs to examine the sort of learning environment it is creating, whether girls are really engaged and encouraged or whether they are just staying under the radar and not causing trouble. When girls are involved in fights at all, something is wrong in the culture. The squeaky wheel gets the oil unless it is a girl wheel, in which case it will be told to follow classroom rules or unroll its skirt or go to the bathroom and wipe off all that mascara.

Fights between students (girls and boys) are sometimes about the opposite sex, sometimes about friendship groups gone wrong, but usually they are fallouts from something that has happened outside of school that gets brought in (see teachers' earlier post); in fact the last fight between 2 girls at my school was the result of a family argument that took place on facebook – the skirt length etc was not a factor

There are several areas in Maths post that is very demeaning towards boys and I felt was sexist against them; the last paragraphs in the post though are not the result of school but of society as a whole

longtimelurker101 · 08/01/2016 10:50

Although the debate on the effect of uniform in schools is a valid one, I think in this discussion it should be accepted for the minute that within the British school system uniform, for the moment, is regarded as important and that ranting against the "stupidity" of it is not going to solve anything. Especially when most parents when consulted by the school state that they prefer uniform to non-uniform.

Schools are placed in a very difficult position of having to meet the needs and wants of a range of stakeholders. Parents, students, teachers, Govenors, OFSTED, the Government and the community within which they operate. This is fantastically difficult job and although some stakeholder interests are closely linked and therefore a higher than others, all must be appeased.

The difficulty when it comes to uniform and appearance is in the interest of many of the that the interests of many of the stakeholders of a school that the public perception of the school is good. Parents, Governors, Teachers and pupils (it can have an effect when applying for jobs in the local area!) all have an strong vested interest in this. For example as the number of students on roll has an effect on the amount of funding a school gets, and thus how well they can provide an education to the students, a public perception that the school is a good with a constructive and disciplined environment for learning effects how many students attend.

As one of the things that effects this perception is the presentation of the students then uniform and the way it is worn becomes an issue. Dismissing this because of your own opinion is very dangerous, as you are just one of many who have a stake in the school.

I'll take the make up issue for one, most schools are stuck between banning make up and allowing it. Very good points made on here about a total ban meaning that self conscious girls with acne are going to feel uncomfortable. But schools are also stuck in the position that allowing make up can mean girls coming to school wearing a full face of make up that has taken an age to put on (which can cause parents difficulties in the morning) and the distraction of the constant need to be topping it up being a distraction from their work in lesson. So the schools tend to opt with "subtle" or "discreet" make up, of which lets be honest a bright shade of red is not.

Once a uniform has been set, and rules agreed it is down to the staff to implement them, some staff will choose not to implement the rules all the time, but many will. One of the reasons that many staff do adhere to the rules set by the school all the time is that it creates a standard approach, if everyone goes by the same rules there is no room for deflective behaviour when dealing with students. Cries of "Well Miss Smith lets me" "Or look at such and such" are not helpful when enforcing school policy no matter what the indiscretion is.

There have been some bad examples of implementation of rules on here, and in the schools I have worked in (and I've been in the profession longer than I would like to remind myself about, it makes me feel very old) I have rarely seen discipline that badly managed, I would definitely say that the school refusing to let students leave even if the detention is set on the day are on a sticky wicket if they were ever properly challenged.

Their may be many reasons for rules on hair or whatever matter of a students appearance but schools make decisions based on the needs of the entire community, not just individuals.

The comments about "rigid adherence" to rules have been dismissed above but those on teacher's fragile egos are and ad hominem attack and therefore they invalidate the argument. Also many posters have said teachers don't make the rules, they enforce them, and many, many school push uniform hard, so teachers are stuck between being told that they are not doing their job by management and having some leeway. In reality all schools give students who have specific needs, even with uniform, a bit of leeway, but most follow the rules.

Lord and the Ilk who cry "my child will not" and shout about their rights have very little understanding of how the system actually works. If Lord think he can circumvent the school rules and quote human rights at his child's school he is welcome to try, but unless there is a legitimate breach of them, his cries will fall on deaf ears. The child has a right to education, but the parent and child do not have a right to disrupt others learning, or to only operate within the school community on their own terms. Lord will have about as much chance of doing the things he says he will as those who claim to be "freemen on the land" do in court.

The sexulisation of girls, and discrimination against girls where uniform is concerened, is an issue, but it is a societal issue that will take decades of hard work to change, but yet is another thing thrown on to the pile that schools are asked to address on top of providing education. Until we as parents, family and a society stop praising little girls for being pretty, and stop judging older females on their appearance, splashing it over magazines etc girls will take the message that their appearance is vitally important, and they will then take that as one of the ways in which they are valued. You cannot expect schools to be the only theater of social change or ask them to accept responsibility for it.

So either we go for a massive societal change in the way the British education system works, the way that we raise and talk to our daughters and behave towards other women. Or we settle to adhere to rules that for the most meet the needs of the whole school community.

Or you can just launch attacks on teachers here, I know which one will happen.

cricketballs · 08/01/2016 10:52

Giles it was made clear that it was the boy's mum who insisted he went to school

cricketballs · 08/01/2016 10:56

longtimelurker101 excellent post (and put much more eloquently than I could ever do) I do not teach English!

Gileswithachainsaw · 08/01/2016 10:56

And they agreed to it and reinforced the humiliation by the isolation.

they could have refused to allow his mum to send him to school fir that purpose and granted the morning to sort it out.

or

let him.come and participate in the lessons and punish kids who ridicule.

maybebabybee · 08/01/2016 11:01

yanbu OP. But then I don't get the angst over dress codes in society in general. I wear trainers and jeans at my office. I have turned down jobs in the city (I work in admin) as I can't bear the fact that women are expected to wear high heels and pencil skirts.

mrsjskelton · 08/01/2016 11:18

I am completely understanding of schools wanting children to look natural as they are representative of the school's reputation - competition between schools is fierce and it also has an impact on ofsted. I DO however get very annoyed when their hair policies are not followed by the adults in school. Teenagers are justice-seeking creatures are shouldn't be treated like idiots - a hair policy should apply to ALL in the building.

AppleSetsSail · 08/01/2016 11:37

longtimelurker that was a great post.

pieceofpurplesky · 08/01/2016 12:02

Giles - mum was given that option but she refused.
Longtime lurker - excellent post.

pieceofpurplesky · 08/01/2016 12:10

Mrs Skelton my school actually does have a policy of sorts on staff clothing as I am sure many schools do - I have dyed red hair - similar in colour to many of the children ... I would not dye it pink and purple. There are no members of staff in my school that have extreme hair colours or cuts and many of my friends in other schools are the same. I have a tattoo but it is not permanently on display and only one member of staff has a nose piercing.
I know schools differ but the fact is that as an adult you make a rational judgement as to what is suitable for where you work and what you wish to look like. Children often do this to provoke a reaction.
The 'adults should follow the same rules children' argument is flawed as one is there to learn and one is there to be taught. One is an adult who has been educated to do a job. One is, ultimately, a child. This has been addressed already on this thread though so am just repeating myself!

Gileswithachainsaw · 08/01/2016 12:10

you still did not have to isolate for a haircut. it's hair..it grows. dyes fade. why even worry about it.

it can't be about public image given he's still allowed to be seen going to and from school. the "damage" is done there.

so why isolate. what would having them in the class do?

RiverTam · 08/01/2016 12:10

longtime that was a very interesting post and I take a lot of what you have said on board. But your last para but one (sorry, on phone so can't copy and paste) depresses me deeply. Personally I find it very sad that anyone would think that we should simply settle for the current situation in society. I doubt the suffragettes would agree with you. It just rams home the point that even in 2016 Britain has a fuck of a long way to go in achieving true equality for girls and women. Because so many of us just want to 'settle'.

I also don't agree that 'ranting' about the stupidity of uniform gets you nowhere. Every time in these threads when someone rants, ideally in a coherent way probably not me then a few more people might listen, might change their view. Better that than 'settling' for the status quo because it's too much effort to do otherwise.

pieceofpurplesky · 08/01/2016 12:23

River the uniform was changed 7 years ago so the current cohort had no decision making. I have met very few children who would prefer to be in their own clothes - most I have met prefer a uniform. As do most parents.

Giles his mother was told he would be in isolation if he came in - the haircut was ridiculous and would have disrupted the entire class - and of course issues would have been dealt with but that would have impacted on year 11 learning (and it was near the exam).
It would have gone like this (knowing the boy involved)...... Look at his hair, omg, what have you done etc. Boy would have played up to his audience and fooled around some more why did you do that? Was pissed wasn't I. Messing around. Did it for a date. I would have reprimanded the language and tried to get the class to settle. Miss do you like my hair? Do you think it's nice? Sarah loves it don't you Sarah? Jo is going to have his done like this later. Then the miss why is he allowed to have hair like that it's stupid and it is distracting me
Etc etc
I have excellent discipline and have very few behaviour problems in my classes but this would have been a very challenging situation. The boy was sat in inclusion with a teacher and did some coursework he was behind on. No classes disrupted and no learning lost.

pieceofpurplesky · 08/01/2016 12:25

That should obviously say dare not date - he would be hard pushed for a date with a hair cut like that! Wink

Gileswithachainsaw · 08/01/2016 12:29

But clearly you don't. because the behaviour is dependant on you removing "distractions"

put it he real world where school o's supposed to be teaching them. to cope with working in, there will be people with stupid hair cuts, badly applied make up, people who look,act, sound different.

if they can't behave in the presence of these people then they can't behave. so no you don't have good dicipline. you have removed situations to avoid dealing with it

pieceofpurplesky · 08/01/2016 12:42

Actually I didn't remove him the head did after speaking to the mum who rang up to explain what had happened.

I do have excellent discipline actually but what you have to remember is that they are kids and love anything that distracts them from lessons - even the most outstanding teacher in the world has issues at times with these unpredictable creatures we call pupils. All the behaviour strategies in the world cannot cover it!
You asked me how it would be disruptive and I told you, so now you tell me I can't be a good disciplinarian ... Of course I would have removed the pupils involved and dealt with them ... But that doesn't stop kids being kids.

Excellent discipline is not about having the kids behave like angels all the time - you said you have 4 kids so you should know that only too well. Excellent discipline is ensuring sporadic behaviour does not impact on learning. I have had kids with knives in class, fights, abuse .... Nothing could have stopped this - would have happened how good a disciplinarian or not! All have been dealt with. These are children and they have a range of very complex needs ...

pieceofpurplesky · 08/01/2016 12:43

From lessons that is - I didn't teach him that day I just used him as an example ..

longtimelurker101 · 08/01/2016 12:49

Sorry I phrased that settling point wrongly, I should have worded it along the lines of acknowledging that while not ideal we must attempt to work within the constraints that we have at the moment, whilst still trying to make progress.

Got to love the non teacher stating that someone doesn't have good classroom discipline, and seemingly dismissing the fact that children can and do find distraction (in fact some actively seek it) it smacks of trying desperately to defend your point when a valid rebuttal has been made.

Gileswithachainsaw · 08/01/2016 12:54

I know kids will be kids. I dont have 4 I have two. well three if you count dp Grin

I know full well they won't be angels all the time. but I do think isolating based on a hair cut or colour is basically giving them something easy to use to "wind you up" with.

appearance should never be a distraction on the classroom. it's all very well saying it would distract the class but what of the paramedic or the person bringing a guide dog in for a talk had half the hair shaved off where a cut was stitched. or a potential new pupil is having a look around. what impression would it leave if there were sniggers over the hair cuts you can't ask them to leave the classroom.

if the kid in question was misbehaving absolutely he should have been removed.

but the hair cut or colour alone is not a good reason. they are separate things.

and that's not remotely comparable to knives etc brought in..thats a criminal offence and obviously stems from problems way beyond what parents and teachers are capable of dealing with.

teacherwith2kids · 08/01/2016 12:58

Giles, good behaviour management often is about 'removing the root of the problem'.

2 boys, chatting in class. Dealt with in 30 seconds by simply moving one to a desk at the other side of the room.

A child playing with a novelty rubber instead of working (I teach primary, this is frequent): it is moved to my desk until the end of the lesson, when they collect it.

If you believe that 'good behaviour management' is as passive as 'when a particular teaching is teaching, no child moves a muscle or looks the wrong way, by magic', you should visit any classroom full of real children. Excellent behaviour management is dealing very quickly, often unobtrusively, and very effectively with anything that arises with a minimum of disruption to the lesson (I don't even need to say anything to get a child to move. I simply point to where they need to go, while continuing to teach. They move. Learning goes on.) But removal of the root cause of the problem, on a short-lived basis sufficient for the class / child to regain focus, is a universally-used technique by good behaviour managers.

MooneyWormtailPadfootProngs · 08/01/2016 13:00

the kid in question was misbehaving absolutely he should have been removed.

but the hair cut or colour alone is not a good reason. they are separate things.

Completely agree with you Giles

Gileswithachainsaw · 08/01/2016 13:02

being able to deal with and work amongst people of all kinds, getting on with things amongst people who look different is a basic life skill. get on a bus or go to the cinema, you will see all sorts.

that's different to deliberate disruptions such as shouting out, making a right racket or a right mess, being nudged or prodded etc. no one should have to put up with that.

and of course they (including teachers and all staff aswell) have the right to a safe clean class room free of weapons and drugs etc.

teacherwith2kids · 08/01/2016 13:05

I do also think it comes down to knowing your individual child and class. There are children, and classes, where the teacher could be absent for a significant time an there would be no change in behaviour. There are other children, and classes, where a single piece of blu-tac has the potential to create mayhem in seconds.

So in one class, with a particular child, an absurd hairstyle would simply get a tiny and momentary stir, and this could be dealt with entirely discreetly by the child in question being asked to go to the hairdressers at the end of the day.

But in another class, with a different child, the main aim of a particular haircut would be to create a distraction and reaction - the mcfc example above would be a good one, as it would have been designed to encourage a reaction from fans / non fans of particular teams, specially designed because this was known tio be a dividing line within the class. Knowing that, a good behaviour manager would deal with it more robustly and immediately, to retain the focus of the rest of the class.

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