Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Flip

1 2 3 4

Original poster

to wonder how one of the most ethnically diverse school in the city manages to have a completely white choir?

79 replies

LouLouLoves · 27/12/2015 20:46

Stuck at the ILs watching a recorded version of every school choir in the city to see DN's school.

I was quite sad to see a completely white choir from a school where more than 90% of the school isn't white.

OP posts:

Katymac · 27/12/2015 21:41

I don't know if DD counts as 2nd or 3rd......but she isn't ballet anyway - MT all the way!!

StellaAlpina · 27/12/2015 21:41

I think the 3rd generation thing might depend on how similar a culture you are moving from/to? It seems a bit long tbh. I'm technically first generation as I was 5 when we moved here but I had ballet etc lessons as a child...but I'm from Italy so things like opera and ballet are pretty normal there too for the middle classes.

DH is Asian but born here and he had piano lessons and I know some of his friends used to be in the school choir.

GinandJag · 27/12/2015 21:43

I once worked in a school that was about 50% Muslim. I chatted to a Muslim girl who was taking GCSE music, but wasn't in the choir. She told me that Muslims don't sing. Not sure how representative that was, but would partly explain why a school that was about 10% white had a mostly white choir.

A different school that I taught at, also diverse, had a choir that reflected the diversity of the school, as the students weren't given a choice.

Andrewofgg · 27/12/2015 22:51

Not given a choice? What sort of choir was that? Not everyone has a good singing voice!

The teachers can only do so much to encourage all pupils to join in out-of-hours activities; if they won't, they won't, and if their parents won't allow it, or discourage it, there is not much tob e done about it.

My school (a boys' school) was one-third Jewish and I guess 15% BME; the choir was mainly white, a few black boys, and very few Jewish boys. Their fare was the great choral classics; they performed with the choir from a girls' school.

Since both choirs were run in their own time by the respective music teachers and ours, at least, was wildly enthusiastic for Bach and Mozart and Handel it's not surprising that that is what the choir did. I don't think it appealed to the parents of the Asian boys or of many of the Jewish boys, and that was their sons' loss, but you cannot blame the teachers.

Fortunately for me (a) my DPs encouraged me to join (b) my voice broke early into (c) a good second tenor which is gold dust and (e) I had learnt to sight read at primary schgool!

manicinsomniac · 27/12/2015 23:33

I agree with you that it's sad but I seriously doubt it's the school's fault, it will just be one of those things and could be due to many different things.

I'm a performing arts teacher in a school which is about 15% BME overall (but it's more like 5% in the oldest year groups and 25% in the youngest so definitely becoming massively more multicultural). It's also about 55% boys.

But my colleague's chamber choir only has one black child in it and I can't get more than a small handful of boys to join my show choir for love nor money. So neither are representative of the school at all but we can't force children to join - I suppose the bottom line is that choirs are essentially not a particularly cool activity and we have to be grateful for those we do get!

mmgirish · 28/12/2015 00:18

I work at an ethnically diverse school. The choir is very small and mostly white. No one is racist, the kids just aren't interested in joining due to their heavy extra curricular activity schedule.

Witchend · 28/12/2015 00:22

Interestingly at the primary mine are at it's the opposite. It's probably around 90%+ white, but the choirs (both non audition and audition) are probably close to 50%.

Themodernuriahheep · 28/12/2015 00:34

Interesting thread.

Have just watched a bit of the Queen's broadcast and of the ? 12 chapel royal choristers 3 are def BME and 1 more might be.

I'm sad about the Muslim statements that they don't sing, because by tradition at many weddings there is the most wonderful evening of poetry and song, by professionals. And some of the most beautiful poetry / song is by people who saw themselves as followers of The Prophet. But I suspect some findamentalist Sunnis would not approve. Need to check this one out.

JeffreysMummyIsCross · 28/12/2015 00:36

I wasn't allowed to sing in the choir, and I was even told to mime at the school carol concerts. Not because the teachers were racist, but because I can't sing for toffee and apparently it was ruining the sound of the rest of the class singing

Themodernuriahheep · 28/12/2015 02:07

I get Soooo cross about that.

Unless you are actually tone deaf, and only 0.05 per cent of the population is, or have no hearing, anyone can be taught to sing. It's a question of breathing and listening and confidence.

I will teach you to sing, not nec well but passably and well enough for a singalong choir. You would have to put effort into it, but unless you are actually tone deaf and speak in a monotone, or are stone deaf, it can be done. And that's not because I am good.

Bet you.

FlatOnTheHill · 28/12/2015 02:13

What is the education like at this school? Surely if that is good then why worry about the colour of the choir.

sashh · 28/12/2015 04:08

Themodernuriahheep

Where are you? I'd love to be able to sing, if I sing along with the radio I have to turn the radio up so I don't hear myself.

My brother is tone deaf - he sings along badly but doesn't know it's bad.

TheBlessedCheesemaker · 28/12/2015 04:44

Parental pressure arising from individual cultural norms is almost certainly behind this. At DCs very MC school we have seen some parents dismissing music, some promoting it, some dismissing sport, some promoting it, some dismissing drama, some promoting it. Choir isnt the coolest thing to do at school so if the parents don't value it relative to other activities then the kids arent likely to be all over it, either.

It is what it is, and seeing it as 'sad' means you are just assuming that your own cultural norms are better that those of others. Why do you think that?

Enjolrass · 28/12/2015 07:32

Just asked dd about this. She goes to a secondary with 2.5k pupils. It is a very diverse school. She is in choir. She said there is only one girl in her choir that is mixed raced. She is a distant relative of our and I know her dad is a musician. The rest are white.

You get in the choir by turning up. You don't have to audition, you just have to come.

She said in primary a couple of her Muslims friends were in choir, but didn't want to be. They did it as their parents would have had to pay for after school child care so they were made to do after school clubs, whatever was on. Many parents did this at our primary as the after school activities were free and kids were picked up at 4.30. So if you could get there for 4.30 it made financial sense.

She says that now her Muslim friends (she has 2 close ones) are expected home 15 minutes after school finishes and don't do any after school clubs, now they are old enough to get themselves home.

This is obviously just what dd is telling me about her school and her friends. Dd goes to after school activities everyday. It's been really good for her as she has got to know kids from all different years and kids in her own year she wouldn't otherwise mix with. Each year has almost 400 pupils in it, so it she only has classes with a small portion of those.

It's made her more comfortable after moving to a big school.

It's a shame her friends are not allowed to join in, but I really don't know what the solution is if their parents see no merit in after school clubs.

MarmiteAndButter · 28/12/2015 07:52

My DCs go to a school in the Middle East, which is majority Muslim in an Islamic country. Their friends sing, do every extra going, perform in the plays and musicals, are in the school orchestra, are on sports teams. Just like my DCs (the minority white British) do.
It's not a "Muslim thing", but more an integration thing I imagine?

Themodernuriahheep · 28/12/2015 10:21

PM me. I'm not a professional musician, but have sung in choirs since a tot. Have taught a group of refusenik colleagues ( male) to sing.

Any decent teacher can teach you. And there are choirs that will take you and teach you.

If your bro can't hear it, that's another obstacle, but as long as he doesn't speak in a monotone he too can learn.

On he Muslim issue, may I ask us the country is Sunni or Shia ?

gotthemoononastick · 28/12/2015 10:31

I would really not even notice this 'demographic' whilst listening to a children's choir.Why oh why?Would you like a fifty-fifty split regardless.

mudandmayhem01 · 28/12/2015 10:44

No need for 50/50 split but i certainly noticed whilst enjoying the Christmas concert in sort of how nice there's Milly, Sam, Jonny etc, but where are Muna, Hasan, Ahmed sort of a way when looking for dds friends on the stage.

AndNowItsSeven · 28/12/2015 10:49

Op why do you keep blaming the school. They can't force the parents to let the children participate.

VintageDresses · 28/12/2015 10:53

I mentored kids at a sought after inner city comp where about 10% were white. Many of the black and asian kids weren't allowed (by their parents) to join extra curricular activities. Either they had domestic duties at home or ,more often, they were required at home for extra tuition/study, either academic or religious.

I saw a group of choir boys on TV over Christmas (was it on Dr Who?) where three out of eight of the boys were black and remember thinking they must be actors, not actual choristers

DoesntLeftoverTurkeySoupDragOn · 28/12/2015 10:58

Did you join MN specifically to post this story?

fuzzywuzzy · 28/12/2015 11:01

My DC went to a Muslim school, both mine were in the school choir and the choir was invited to sing by invitation at Whitehall.

So Muslims do indeed sing.

Currently my eldest dd is in the all girls football club, the reading club, the cooking club and a whole heap of other clubs (I can't keep up) and DP is in the process of teaching both DC how to play guitar and piano.

I begged my parents to allow me piano lessons as a child but it's more an Indian parents thing and my mother refused, altho I did learn anyway at lunchtimes.
It's considered a waste of time if it wasn't maths/science it's a waste apparently.

strawberryandaflake · 28/12/2015 11:04

Oh for Pete's sake. Are you going to force kids to join the choir because they are black/brown/blue with green spots???

No one is racist, it's just the way it is.

treaclesoda · 28/12/2015 11:04

At my large secondary school, the choir at one stage was entirely female because the music staff just could not get teenage boys to sing, no matter what type of music they tried. Eventually they got it up to about 10% boys.

I know it's not the same scenario but it's a good example of how difficult it is for a school to put together a choir that properly represents the entire school.

FlatOnTheHill · 28/12/2015 15:13

Does it matter what colour the choir is. I would not give a shit what ratio of colours were standing in front of me as i am sure they were all lovely kids singing beautifully.
Its posters like this that cause racism issues when there are none there.

Flip

1 2 3 4