to wonder how one of the most ethnically diverse school in the city manages to have a completely white choir?

[LouLouLoves]

Stuck at the ILs watching a recorded version of every school choir in the city to see DN's school.

I was quite sad to see a completely white choir from a school where more than 90% of the school isn't white.

[swiggityswoogity]

YABU and racist to assign negative value to white children.. shame on you

[Lucy61]

Depends on what they are singing at the choir. Do the songs/music reflect the cultural diversity of the school? If not, I can see why some pupils might feel that it's not for them.

[BuildMoreHouses]

I thought of the Gareth Malone choir programme too antimatter.

[Enjolrass]

Thanks lonny here Friday school finishes at the same time as other days, but I see what you are saying. Thank you

[NewLife4Me]

I think you also need to consider areas where school choirs don't exist, where there is county provision only.
These areas have to attract children throughout the whole area and can only go with those that turn up.
It is like this in our area despite lots of initiatives to encourage participation.
There is often a shortage of boys here, let alone a good mix of all faiths, nationalities, and ethnicities.
There are few mc children mostly wc children in our area.

As for labelling children with their parents religion I don't see people who do this, apart from maybe looking at barriers to access for the children. This can also be applied to parental finances or culture, whether mc, or wc.
If parents don't see value in a particular activity they are hardly likely to encourage and support their children in the activity.

[Brokenbiscuit]

In my dd's school, the choir is very popular indeed, their main problem is not the ethnic mix (which is similar to the rest of the school), but getting any boys to sing. It seems they don't bother til around 13/14 then join the senior choir, perhaps correctly perceiving it as a good way to get to know girls better! There are no boys at all in my dd's junior choir, not one.

Same at our school this year, though there were boys in other years. There are plenty of Muslim girls in the choir, and indeed, plenty of children from other faiths and all ethnicities. Sadly, this year, there isn't a single boy. :(

[LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett]

Where I live Enjol there is no school on a Friday afternoon. So what I believe is traditionally a Saturday morning activity elsewhere - faith instruction, Chinese language school, whatever - tends to take place on a Friday afternoon, which means children doing those sorts of activities don't take part in other sorts of activities - hence my comment up thread about football, most football clubs here train on a Friday and tend to be white.

[Enjolrass]

By the way, not to throw some petrol on flames but I intensely dislike labelling children win the religion of their parents, but I guess that's for another day ...

What do you mean?

[MurielKlein]

By the way, not to throw some petrol on flames but I intensely dislike labelling children win the religion of their parents, but I guess that's for another day ...

[MurielKlein]

My children are at a school about 40% ME (I don't get "BME" - why separate B from ME?). When youngest started in reception a parents drinks evening was organised at one of the local pubs. About 99% of those who came were white (not a reflection of the class at all) and so it has been for the informal group since. There may be different reasons involved, but I guess the point is that not everyone shares the interests and values of the white middle class (which is not always a bad thing, nor a good thing).

[Enjolrass]

Our choir runs Thursday's. The school finishes at 2.30pm and after school clubs finish at 3.30pm. So still early.

So Friday isn't the issue. Although I would say that since many Muslims work Friday's it's not the main issue.

Our school has a prayer room for all faiths and school is open until 6pm. So they can pray during the day.

Are prayer times so strict in a Friday? I know that congregational prayer is traditionally set at lunchtime Friday. But that wouldn't interfere with after school clubs.

Also the person that does choir is only part time. What if they can only do Friday? Is that still discrimination?

[NewLife4Me]

Forgot to add.
I know quite a few chorister parents too and they aren't religious and yes there are all types there. Not specifying as wouldn't want to omit any group.

[LynetteScavo]

Not representative of*

[NewLife4Me]

My dd has sung in many a choir and we aren't middle class.
In none of them has there been more than one or two children who weren't white.
They vary from those you need to audition for ability to community and LA open to all choirs.
Some including a church choir had a mix of practising Christians, atheists and the other I forget. Agnostic?
If children are openly encouraged as the gov initiatives Sing up et al and they choose not to take up the offer then surely this is a child/parent choice.

[LynetteScavo]

I was wondering two weeks ago how the choir at my DSs school could be made up of 100% emos.

Don't representative if the school as a whole, but hey.

[2rebecca]

I think extracurricular clubs tend to be held on a regular night each week to make things easier for parents and pupils. There will be some on a Friday. That's life. I think all state schools should be secular. Friday evenings are awkward for many separated parents as well where kids alternate weekends. Every child can't attend every club. You shouldn't not have a club at a particular time just because some kids can't go. Choirs shouldn't not sing requiems because some kids can't sing them because that severely limits the repertoire. We are not a muslim country.

[Mumoftwoyoungkids]

If choir practice is held at such a time that a specific group of children can't attend (e.g Friday pm), or involves singing songs that would be incompatible with their faith, then it is indirect discrimination.

When I read it I immediately assumed that choir practice was held on a Friday or on a day where there is another club that is more attractive to non white pupils.

Is this always discrimination though? I'm not a teacher (and even if I was wouldn't be running a choir - I'm not musical) but the one day I can stay late at work is a Friday (as dh finishes early then so does both the school run and the nursery run). So if I was setting up a school choir it would be a Friday choir or no choir.

Would that be me discriminating? Would it be better for there to be no choir rather than an all white choir? (Don't know what the answer is - thankfully spreadsheets of all backgrounds are happy to be worked on on a Friday night!)

[2rebecca]

I think as long as no one is excluded or descriminated against then expecting mixed race/ faith for every activity is unreasonable. Equal opportunity doesn't mean everyone has to do the same thing. Choirs often sing Christian music. Muslim and Hindu parents of friends of mine at school didn't like their daughters doing anything non academic. Looking after your reputation was very important. My sons school was about 30% nonwhite but choirs and cadets and drama were nearly all white. The orchestra was probably over represented in Chinese origin kids but few Indian subcontinent origin kids. Chess club and maths competitions were different proportions again.

[antimatter]

I am watching "The Choir Gareth Malone's Great Choir Reunion"

One of the guys from Lancaster school who turned down invitation to the reunion said that as he is devout Muslim he can't sing in a choir any more as choirs originate in Christianity.

[lougle]

The question is whether it is free choice or indirect discrimination.

If all boys are allowed to join a chereleading squad, but they have a compulsory class that happens to clash with squad practice, then indirectly, they have been prevented from joining the squad.

If choir practice is held at such a time that a specific group of children can't attend (e.g Friday pm), or involves singing songs that would be incompatible with their faith, then it is indirect discrimination.

[UninventiveUsername]

Orda, I went to school in Newham with approx 80% BME students, I believe it is more like 90% now. Our school had a choir and I think it was quite mixed (from what I remember). It definitely wasn't all white.

[hefzi]

orda Cippenham, Bray and Slough also - there used to be a CofE primary that had no Christian children in at all a few years ago.

[carabos]

orda plenty of schools in Bradford Met authority with more than 90% BME.

[BlueJug]

Good answers here although I suspect OP was hoping for another "Hey I've spotted a racist - 10 points for me" thread.

[HPsauciness]

In my dd's school, the choir is very popular indeed, their main problem is not the ethnic mix (which is similar to the rest of the school), but getting any boys to sing. It seems they don't bother til around 13/14 then join the senior choir, perhaps correctly perceiving it as a good way to get to know girls better! There are no boys at all in my dd's junior choir, not one.