to think that overseas aid should be diverted to those affected by the flooding

[Ohbehave1]

What the title says really. Especially from places like india who can afford a space program and nuclear power

Local councils have had huge cuts however they also suffer from a lot of wastage.

Because its not within local councils remit! Its the environment agency and central government, you could have Calderdale spending money on flood defences which would deplete spending on other servuces, but Calderdale would still be effected because of other councils not making the same choices...

To the poster up thread who said they agree with Trident, fine, but there is your opportunity cost of flood defences.

How bout cutting the £100 million subsidy from grouse moor farmers to pay for it and making the people who go on shoots pay more? They got £100 million subsidy in the last budget.

I wasn't being goady, trolling or reoicing in anyones misery when I said people who lived on river banks must have considred flooding to be a possibility.

I agree with international aid, and there have been some confusions on here between governent aid and charity, but I think if you are going to propose one change to fiscal policy to suit yourself, you should look at many others.

Why are farmers about to recieve bigger subsidies? Why have the top 7 merchant banks in the country paid £20 million corporation tax betwee them when they have made billions in profit? Why have these corporate profits been effectively subsidised by the tax payer by allowing them to write off losses made in the financial crisis for the last few years?

I'm the poster up thread who works for the EA. Yesterday, the Aire, Calder and Wharfe (that I know of) were all at higher levels than ever recorded - not by a little bit, but by a metre in some places on the Upper Calder Valley (previous max levels recorded in Autumn 2000 floods). That is a massive amount of water. To be fair to all governments, this flood event would have happened regardless of any previous investment and flood defence schemes, because we never would have considered, designed or built anything more than 1 m higher than maximum historic flood levels. In new schemes we build in height for sea level rise, but not that much. It's just an enormous incident.

Gummy - it has nothing do do with my not being able to accept that we are "lower" than other countries. If you're trying to suggest that I suffer from some kind of colonial superiority, then please don't, because you couldn't be further from the truth. I just don't find an "overall" measure of wealth to be particularly useful since we're talking about countries the size of continents ( China and India) - it's not surprising that they have more resources than us and create more wealth. What I was trying to say is that in terms of what we have per capita (as well as as a nation), we are pretty well at the top of the tree, though you wouldn't think it given that we are always being told we can't afford anything (NHS, universities, flood defences, police., etc).

Sorry to go on about this when we're only arguing about the minor point of whether it's fifth or ninth, but the inference that I couldn't cope with being lower than China or India in the rankings is unfounded.

Love the "councils suffer a lot from wastage" which is mostly a right wing myth. It's stranget then that in manyy cases when private firms take on traditional council services they cost more and deliver poorer services isn't it, seeing as the profit motive is supposed to improve efficiency.

Err councils do suffer from wastage, others on this threads have already cited examples of this. Mummyiscross that is how you came across I'm afraid. I was clearly talking about overall wealth. My points were s poo specifically debunking the view that overseas aid is why resources are not being used for this flooding crisis. Yes British individuals people have higher personal wealth. However the context of this perceived wealth is due to the financial resources of other third world countries

Then why is it when private companies take over council services they cost more, see what is going on in Barent at the moment for an example?

Anyway, flood defences are central governent and the EA's remit, not local councils.

Bike, thanks for your comments. I referred to you in one of my own pp and I apologise if I put words in your mouth.

I must admit I hadn't grasped the enormity of the flood levels in those rivers. Its really quite shocking. Do you think this will impact how flood defences are planned in future? Is obviously highly political - look at this thread!

Gummy - well, in that case I'm going to have to work on expressing myself better. My family is Indian on one side, so it would be a bit odd if I had feelings of colonial superiority towards a country that my family is actually from. I actually really like India and am quite happy to accept that it is richer than us in several ways. I mentioned the per capita measure in response to Alice's post about us not being able to afford healthcare, rather than in relation to the overseas aid issue, which seems to have confused things somewhat.

Also in reference to the OP hasn't Britain recently sent an astronaut into space, they had money for that 😊

Ohhh now your half Indian, well I'm African so? My points still count, and some people of colour sadly still have internalised self hatred due to racism and colonialism. My points still stand.

yes that 'wastage' includes 15 of my co-workers made redundant this Christmas - their job was to provide careers support to looked after/send/neet young people - 2 of us remain - our youth service has gone, YOS service halved and assimilated on lower wages, EWO service scrapped, CAMHS cut to the bone

our council budget this year going from £17 million to £2 million - it's awful at the front line - I'm shocked people aren't more aware of it :(

In turn my points were s specifically in relation to aid as the OP had raised this as her main point.

Thanks HB01, I doubt these floods will make much difference to the politics of flood risk management. They never usually do (I've been in my job for 15 years), although the 2007 floods did change the law.

Re local authority/EA remit . The EA has very few responsibilities, but many powers. There is nothing to stop local authorities, private individuals, commercial organisations etc commissioning (appropriate) flood defence works. Major works on the Aire through central Leeds, currently under construction, are being funded by Leeds City Council. Much of this frontage is owned by Asda - have they put their hands in their pockets? Not a penny. It is very common for Local Authorities to do flood defence works. Responsibility lies with the landowner.

"Also in reference to the OP hasn't Britain recently sent an astronaut into space, they had money for that"

Yes, pledged by Peter Mandelson in March 2010.

Its funny that, anything that has gone wrong is Labour's fault, yet anything that goes right is a coup for the Tories.

Peake in space is a great triumph, and a Labour decision.

So it's a Great triumph when Britain does it but not when India does it?

Bike you raise an interesting point about funding of flood defences. Why shouldn't beneficiaries contribute towards the costs (as private citizens arguably do indirectly via taxation)? Asda will benefit from those defences under construction in Leeds. Events such as these floods will have an impact on insurance and reinsurance rates - that impact will be keenly felt by huge companies like Asda who already spend tens of millions on property and business interruption insurance each year (this is my area of work). That's just on premiums - I don't know the details of Asda's insurance arrangements but their excesses/retentions will also be in the millions - that's cash straight off their bottom line. I mentioned above that insurance is the last resort in risk management. Asda and the like would see a direct benefit through improved defences, in terms of reduction of direct damage and reduced insurance costs. And the communities they profit from would also benefit.

I was responding to longtimelurker about anything that goes right being Tory.

As pointed out by several posters earlier in the thread, India is no longer a recipient of British aid, so no savings possible there (don't know which government finally cut aid to India).

Leeds City Council's argument for not approaching Asda (or any of the other household-name businesses on the Aire in Leeds) is that they would move offices, and LCC would rather they stayed where they are and keep the jobs in the city.

I can see their argument, Bike. My political beliefs are colouring my view on this. Ultimately, someone has to pay for the flood damage or defences so it comes down to who has the most persuasive argument at the time. I can understand why a council wouldn't want to be seen to risking those jobs.

Insurance premium tax has gone up 3.5% this year. I'd like to think that some of those extra funds would be directed towards these sort of projects.

Anyway, I'm derailing the thread now. Thanks for your insight.

Samcro Sun 27-Dec-15 17:03:49

Where is all this money going to come from?
We have no money, budgets are being slashed

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ad nauseam.

Budget slashing is ideological. And stupid. We have an economy based on consumerism, and a currency based on nothing but trust. We can print as much money as we want. In fact we do, to keep the zombie banks in business. There is another way, use your search engine of choice to look at what Steve Keen has to say or what Finland is doing...

YABU. Foreign Aid spending shouldn't have anything to do with flood relief budgeting. Both are crucial and both can be afforded.

Also - what is needed in terms of flood relief and future prevention is complex and will require a lot of discussion and planning.

The town I am from flooded badly in the first wave of floods (escaped this time) and I've picked up two things from it which seem relevant to the discussion:

• a lot of people are against the building of flood defences due to the experience of a nearby town which already had the defences. The water easily over-topped the defences and then, when the levels began to subside, the defences prevented the water from draining away, causing more damage, not less.

• the local councils and community seem to be doing an incredible job of helping themselves. A couple of examples from my home town:

* flooded out businesses have been given empty premises in a new (and failing!) shopping outlet centre and are operating out of there rent free. * flooded out people have been given empty premises in the empty flats above the same (failing!) shopping outlet centre free of rent. * Marks and Spencers invited any children who had lost their Christmas presents to come and get new toys from their store free of charge. * Morrison provided 3 free hot meals a day to the residents of the surrounding flooded streets for as long as was needed.

I don't think that kind of help is readily available to people in need of foreign aid.

Honestly, Gummy, I fail to see why you have such a problem. I've tried to make my points in a constructive, polite manner up till now and tried to account for why we have been talking at cross purposes. I never actually said your points "didn't stand" if you read my posts, but that obviously isn't important since you seem like the kind of aggressive person who would start an argument in an empty room.

Your sneery comment about internalised racism is extremely offensive - I'm very proud of my ethnicity (and certainly not lying about it; I've mentioned it, or family visits to India, on MN before), so your racist stereotyping of self-loathing subalterns doesn't quite work here, I'm afraid.

I don't intend to derail this thread any further. So do feel free to have the last word since throwing out insults is clearly so very important to you. Get in another racist stereotype or accusation of lying (not quite sure which of the two you were going with?) if you like. I'd hate to deprive you of your festive fun [santa]