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Dredge the Rivers ffs!!!!!!

195 replies

finetonive · 27/12/2015 09:33

We need to go back to dredging rivers REGULARLY.

Those poor people.

OP posts:
TheDrsDocMartens · 31/12/2015 08:03

They could claim the EU grant to assist now though. Why aren't they?
Is it an anti-Europe stance?

SSargassoSea · 31/12/2015 08:05

FlankShaftMcFlap were you given grants to drain land?

Certainly round here there are often yellow diggers seen in distant fields with giant rolls of piping. The council are about to spend millions on a flood control in the main town, seems ridiculous when one half of the community are freely making the situation worse.

FlankShaftMcWap · 31/12/2015 11:16

Grouse moors aren't a great deal to do with farmers though Talk1n, farmers are more likely to be tenants of the major landowners that own the moors. I was a tenant of such an estate myself until two years ago and I never met the owner of the land. He lived in London and certainly didn't farm. I'm sure that some grouse moor activity is non beneficial but it isn't related to the suggestion upthread that sheep farming is a major contributor to these floods. Which is what I was responding to.
CAP reform in 2014 made it more difficult for large estates to take advantage of the payments system here, 'In order to ensure payments target active farmers, sporting estates whose principal activities are not agricultural will be added to the list of business types to be excluded from future Direct Payments. Regulations already stipulate that airports, railway services, waterworks, real estate services, permanent sport and recreational grounds are to be excluded from Direct Payments unless they are able to demonstrate that they are a genuine farming business.'

otto I've read that article a few times and it contains more than a few misinterpretations of eligible land and the payments made to farmers. To be eligible for the SFP land must be of 3 hectares or more and actively farmed. The amount of trees on land has no bearing on eligibility aside from the assumption that a forest is not a farm and therefore wouldn't be claimed on as such.
Most of the articles I have read on this subject are disingenuous when it comes to supposed 'land clearing grants' in that there is never a specific reference to a particular payment that requires land clearance. Only that farmers claim subsidies alongside the fact that some farmers clear trees. This is frequently interpreted as 'farmers are paid to clear trees' when the fact is that farmers are paid subsidies whether they choose to clear trees or not. I cannot find, certainly in Scotland, any set of funds reserved for incentivising vegetation clearance.
This paragraph of the article Just as the tree-planting grants have stopped, the land-clearing grants have risen. In his speech to the Oxford Farming Conference, made during the height of the floods, the environment secretary Owen Paterson boasted that hill farmers "on the least productive land" will now receive "the same direct payment rate on their upland farmland as their lowland counterparts". In other words, even in places where farming makes no sense because the land is so poor, farmers will now be paid more to keep animals there. But to receive this money, they must first remove the trees and scrub that absorb the water falling on the hills. is particularly misleading. It refers to the area of CAP reform that changed direct payments from 'historical activity based' to 'area based' as explained here, Basic Payments in Scotland will be paid on an area basis and, to reflect the variation in land across Scotland, will be based on traditional land quality.There will be three Payment Regions which will determine the final area rates of the Basic Payment.• Payment Region 1 (around 1.8m hectares) This will include parcels of better quality agricultural land that have been typically used for arable cropping, temporary grass and permanent grass. Rough grazing will not be included in Payment Region 1.• Payment Region 2 (around 1m hectares) This will include parcels of better quality rough grazing which have been designated as Less Favoured Areas (LFA) grazing categories B, C, D and non-LFA.• Payment Region 3 (around 2m hectares) This will include parcels of the poorest quality rough grazing which have been designated as LFA grazing category A. In recognition of the di?erence in land quality, the budget will be distributed between these Payment Regions to achieve a balance in 2019 that reflects the variation in the productive capacity of the land.
We're talking about farms that have existed for hundreds of years, not vast expanses of untouched moorland that will need to be cleared before farming can commence. Again there is no qualifying criteria that deals with tree clearance, only productivity level. Although tree volume and placement can influence the level of productivity on land, it is one of many factors. As an example, a tree may restrict tractor access and be removed. Obviously not ideal but hardly classes as 'removing all vegetation'.

FlankShaftMcWap · 31/12/2015 11:29

SSargosso We are very lucky in that our farm has excellent natural variation in terrain which provides us with good protection from water logging. We have woodland, scrub, a bog and watercourses in addition to grassland.
I am noting people's points about the variations between Scotland, Wales and England so of course my personal circumstances are certainly not definitive but no, I receive no money for drainage. Again, drainage will be a factor in productivity which is taken into account when applying for payments. So although no drainage grant, if you have waterlogged fields you will produce less and so on.

SSargassoSea · 31/12/2015 15:56

I suppose if you own the land you can drain or not as you see fit.

Two properties near here have been flooded due to changes (by full size digger) made by farmers upstream and next door. There doesn't seem to be anything they, the property owners, can do.

Requests for work to correct this by farmers is ignored. I think they claim it is not to do with any changes they made.

medalsforeveryone · 31/12/2015 15:58

The country is skint though, or supposably whilst building nuclear submarines, aircraft carriers, awarding bonuses to bankers, HS2. I'll stop now.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 31/12/2015 16:01

There's been a few references in this thread to possible differences in management between the nations. This just popped up on my twitter feed, and I thought it was an interesting article...

newsnet.scot/?p=116159

Basically, regulations seem to be far stricter in Scotland than elsewhere.

DrDreReturns · 31/12/2015 16:54

Is it just me that thinks when you have this amount of rain flooding is inevitable? I think that improved defences / management could make it less severe, but it would be impossible to stop all that water causing some flooding.
I haven't read the whole thread, but a friend of mine works for the Environment Agency and she says dredging has more drawbacks than positives.

Ta1kinPeece · 31/12/2015 16:58

but it would be impossible to stop all that water causing some flooding.
There will inevitably be significant fluctuations in peak discharge
BUT
if the water can be kept in the soil high in the catchments for at least a few hours, rather than flowing straight off, then the peak is attenuated and reduced

Look at this page
watermonitoring.uwex.edu/wav/monitoring/flow.html
The amount of water flowing down the river is the same
but the peak flow is very different

DrDreReturns · 31/12/2015 18:35

Thanks, I am talking from a position of ignorance.

Ta1kinPeese · 31/12/2015 19:02

Grin I'm typing from the position of a river obsessed Geography graduate Wink

But the hydrology really matters if you are going to make the money spent be effective.

YeOldeTrout · 01/01/2016 00:22

The UK does not have much aquifer abstraction any more as that was used up decades and decades ago

Only one third of England supply = not much (?)

So... 17 yrs ago I worked for 2.5 yrs on a groundwater project. National govt. funded. Led by [Big Name] who had made a career out of showing that trees were terrible for exhausting groundwater supplies. Every week I was in the field measuring groundwater recharge rates & transpiration in trees. Lots of digging holes, such is the fate of physical geographers. One of our project meetings someone showed borehole level data over time, long term declines. There are reasons why you get dips near boreholes anyway, but the downward trend was real enough.

I know feck all about engineering. Just seems crazy to have so much water so close to areas prone to water shortage. There's gotta be an opportunity.

SSargassoSea · 01/01/2016 08:19

As far as I am aware the rain bearing winds were coming from the south.

This is unusual as most wind comes from the west, or at least the prevailing winds are from the west and hence the west of the country the wettest.

This time they came from the south, unusual and more so as it was December so you expect cold northerly/westerly/easterly winds. Perhaps that is why there was more flooding, heavier rain than usual and from a different direction so running off from other than usual places.

tilder · 01/01/2016 09:11

People have been trying to do things to prevent, mitigate and manage flooding for years including for climate change. It's not popular in the hot sunny months or in dry cold winters or when someone wants to build something. 'Tree huggers trying to stop progress'.

I've been watching bbc the last few weeks and it's awful. All those people. But this will keep happening. It will affect more people. It will cost a hell of a lot of money.

They need to stop making it difficult to develop renewable energy. They need to stop pushing carbon heavy energy. They need to enable efficiency.

They need to listen to the evidence on water management and fund it properly.

We all need to realise things have changed and we will not be able to prevent flooding entirely. It's deeply unpopular but properties need to have improved flood resilience and not just a panic last minute rush for sandbags.

Egosumquisum · 01/01/2016 09:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SSargassoSea · 01/01/2016 10:58

It's deeply unpopular but properties need to have improved flood resilience and not just a panic last minute rush for sandbags

But water can come up through the drains, not just in through the walls/doors. Can't really stop that I shouldn't think.

tilder · 01/01/2016 12:23

Yes water can come from lots of places including ground water, which you really can't do anything about.

Septic tanks can have non return valves so why can't normal drains?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 01/01/2016 17:47

But water can come up through the drains, not just in through the walls/doors. Can't really stop that I shouldn't think.

You can also do things like tile your downstairs, with floor drains, swimming pool paint on wall,.all electricity high up etc

That way after a flood recovery is much faster.

IrenetheQuaint · 03/01/2016 10:51

This is interesting - an article about Pickering in Yorkshire, which is traditionally flood-prone but avoided any flooding this time round by building lots of traditional, environmentally friendly flood defences in the moors above the town.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-flooding-how-a-yorkshire-flood-blackspot-worked-with-nature-to-stay-dry-a6794286.html

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