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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Is this casual racism? Along the lines of ching chong jokes?

614 replies

Cimcardishan · 24/12/2015 22:12

I'm BBC (British born Chinese) and feel that it seems more permissible to be casually racist about Chinese than other racial groups. A few years ago there used to be a Chinese tea advert with a kung fu monk and really bad accent which just felt wrong to me. I don't think that kind of advert would have been made about jerk chicken or naan bread for example.

Someone just posted on my FB jokes with Chinese accent, one liners, eg.Tie my shoe Tai Mai Shu

OK, thats pretty rubbish but it was a long list of them. It wasn't to me personally.

I found it old fashioned and un PC. I feel if someone posted this with Jamaican or Indian accents it would be disapproved of.

Am I being oversensitive?

OP posts:
derxa · 26/12/2015 11:20

And Ego I'm sorry you had to go through that bullying.

Egosumquisum · 26/12/2015 11:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
Cimcardishan · 26/12/2015 17:03

brioche I do hope you understand now that chinky is not acceptable for cuisine.

Maybe you do not know this as you don't live in a multicultural community?

However your response does not surprise me as thats what I've heard people call it around here.

'I fancy a Chinese tonight' is the appropriate term. It is the one I use.

OP posts:
WMittens · 26/12/2015 18:17

MrsLeighHalfpenny
I'm Welsh. I am constantly the butt of racist jokes. Apparently that doesn't count as racism though, because Welsh isn't forrin.

Welsh isn't "forrin" {sic} in relation to, say, and English person.

SecretBondGirl
...Ni**er are both abbreviations of longer words...

Of what is ni**er an abbreviation? As far as I was aware it's just a word from the Latin root nigrum, similar to Nigeria, Niger (the country and river) and the Italian word negro.

WMittens · 26/12/2015 18:17

*an English person, not 'and'.

Original poster
Cimcardishan · 26/12/2015 19:21

wmittens but we are being pedantic?

Welsh being forrin or not, abbreviated slurs, the bottom line is its offensive.

OP posts:
chocomochi · 26/12/2015 20:17

Abbreviated or not, offensive is offensive. Some posters are being told certain words/behaviour is offensive and yet they carry on arguing that it isn't! This just proves that the op is right!

WMittens · 26/12/2015 21:37

Cimcardishan
the bottom line is its offensive.

chocomochi
offensive is offensive.

There is no arbitrary, absolute definition of "offence" - offence is personal and individual.

tethersend · 26/12/2015 21:43

Offence is not personal and individual.

Something is deemed to be offensive by consensus.

Most people I know would agree that the examples in the OP are offensive, even if they are not personally affected.

What is deemed to be offensive changes over time, by consensus. If someone wishes to carry on using terminology which the majority finds offensive, they must be prepared to be judged as racist.

WMittens · 26/12/2015 22:18

Something is deemed to be offensive by consensus.

So, would referring to an African American as a 'negro' be deemed offensive?

Would naming a product after a weapon of mass destruction be deemed offensive?

Would calling someone "crazy" be deemed offensive?

Would calling someone a "hard worker" be deemed offensive?

Egosumquisum · 26/12/2015 22:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

stopfuckingshoutingatme · 26/12/2015 22:31

Yanbu - in general I say is someone find something racist - it IS racist - I think most ethnic minority's have pretty thick skin really given all the sxxt that they get

I get really annoyed by the bloody Dolmio family TBH !

Outaboutnowt · 26/12/2015 22:59

would referring to an African American as a 'negro' be deemed offensive?

Do you really need to ask that?

IMO offence and words/terms being viewed as racist or offensive is a lot to do with context and historical/social factors.

Someone mentioned upthread about 'paki' not being offensive at all in Australia, however in the UK it has been used in a derogatory way for decades and has acquired particular venom behind it that it may not have in Australia.

I think people have every right to be offended by words or jokes that are viewed as racist even if they have no malice intended behind them.

I highly doubt anyone would do the Chinese accent jokes to a Chinese or BBC person. Which suggests they probably know it's not on. The people who find those jokes funny, IME, are the same types of people who do the old 'I'm not being racist but...' chestnut.

tethersend · 26/12/2015 23:07

Whilst individuals can be offended, something doesn't necessarily become offensive until enough people agree that it is. This shifts and changes from place to place, from time to time etc.

I have an issue with the idea that if one person is offended then something is offensive- individuals can feel offence at different things, not always rationally, and it often leads to the onus being put on the offended person to change how they feel and therefore stop something being offensive. Which is absurd.

Egosumquisum · 26/12/2015 23:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WMittens · 26/12/2015 23:31

Outaboutnowt
"would referring to an African American as a 'negro' be deemed offensive?"

Do you really need to ask that?

Well yeah, as per this video:

I'd recommend watching the whole thing to see the different discussions (it's only about 6 minutes).

Someone mentioned upthread about 'paki' not being offensive at all in Australia, however in the UK it has been used in a derogatory way for decades and has acquired particular venom behind it that it may not have in Australia.

Exactly, that's my whole point! Offence is not universal.

WMittens · 26/12/2015 23:32

If you click the link it takes you to the bit I was talking about (3:51), clicking the picture plays the whole video.

Behooven · 26/12/2015 23:37

I watched The Dambusters on the 24th, one of my fave films but I haven't seen it for years. Before the film and at every ad break they warned about offensive language. I was Confused at what it could be. In 1954 'damn fine fellow' was considered strong language on film but It soon became apparent what the issue was.
The black Labrador was named 'nigger', Shock just what ego was saying really about how times change.

Outaboutnowt · 26/12/2015 23:41

wmittens I will watch the video when I'm on a computer, it won't load on my phone.

I've always though 'negro' was offensive though. My black friends wouldn't be fine with being called it, at all.

tethersend · 26/12/2015 23:43

"The onus should not be on the person to change how they feel but on the people saying what they are saying to reflect on what they are saying and not to dismiss the views of someone who says it's offensive."

I agree with this- in fact, this is how change is effected and something becomes offensive. Just because something being offensive requires consensus does not mean that individual feelings should be dismissed- just that it needs enough people to respond to those people's feelings for something to be universally recognised as offensive.

"Especially if members of a "dominant" group tell you that something they say is not offensive - when it is incredibly offensive and upsetting to you. How are people to learn what is offensive if they dismiss the views of a minority who say "actually, you probably don't realise but what you are saying is offensive. Here's why""

As above- this is how consensus is reached. Racial slurs have not become offensive because ethnic minorities have become majorities; they have become offensive precisely because of conversations like this. We hear some of the language used a hundred years ago and wince; but, at the time, this was not deemed to be offensive. Now, it is abhorrent.

The difficulty in recognising something as offensive due to one individual's feeling without regard to the general consensus/cultural/geographical factors is that a lot of things are offensive to someone- there are people in some countries who are genuinely offended by a woman laughing on the street. Not enough people in the UK feel the same, therefore we do not see it as offensive. We are not wrong to do so.

Outaboutnowt · 26/12/2015 23:43

I should add, I would have assumed in America 'negro' would go down almost the same as 'nigger' but perhaps I am wrong.

chocomochi · 26/12/2015 23:45

Why are some posters trying to lighten the subject of casual racism to Chinese people? This is exactly what the op is trying to say. Just because non-Chinese are not offended by derogatory words it doesn't mean it isn't offensive to Chinese people. Why are some people constantly trying to turn the argument around to say it isn't offensive and therefore not racism?

Going along some arguments, are you also going to jump in to say bullying is ok because only one person is offended/affected by it too?

WMittens · 26/12/2015 23:49

Outaboutnowt
I've always though 'negro' was offensive though. My black friends wouldn't be fine with being called it, at all.

I believe it was the accepted term in America many years ago (40/50+ years) and long since fell out of favour. That was part of my surprise (and evidently that of the presenter) when I first watched that video, and goes to show everyone is an individual.

tethersend · 26/12/2015 23:51

You misunderstand me, chocolmochi- I agree with the OP that the examples she gives are offensive. I am not Chinese and I find the terms offensive.

I'm simply pointing out that we find the terms offensive due to consensus- at the moment, some of us mix in circles where the terms are deemed to be offensive and some of us don't.

If those who don't want to continue to use the terms, then they must accept that a LOT of people (me included) will think that they are racist. That's their call. What should happen over the next few years is that more and more people will stop, think, not want to be seen as racist and the term will drop from use altogether.

WMittens · 26/12/2015 23:54

"The onus should not be on the person to change how they feel but on the people saying what they are saying to reflect on what they are saying and not to dismiss the views of someone who says it's offensive."

I agree with Stephen Fry on this one:

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