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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To tell you to read this thread if your DC starts school in Sept!

244 replies

seamstressmummy · 19/12/2015 19:13

This thread saved my skin last year, so I am paying back the karma.

15th January seems to be the closing date again.

  • remember it is preferences, not choices
  • they do not HAVE to give you one of the schools on your list
  • make sure you have a dead cert banker in there!
OP posts:
CakeNinja · 20/12/2015 22:05

Church attendance wasn't anywhere within the criteria, I would never have been dishonest about my application and I definitely didn't fill in anything about religious beliefs!
I honestly am not concerned, there genuinely isn't anywhere else I'd send him and I'm confident he'll be accepted.
There will be no DM sad faces here!

CakeNinja · 20/12/2015 22:06

It's a CofE school

teacherwith2kids · 20/12/2015 22:17

We have some classic sad face photos round here - one from last year was a classic of the genre 'A member of staff I spoke to at the open evening said we live quite near the priority admissions area, and it's a really good school and the only one I wanted, so it was the only one I put down on my form'

This for one of the most oversubscribed schools in the county, which is well known for the fact that it hasn't admitted to the edge of its priority admissions area for YEARS.

MrsHathaway · 20/12/2015 22:37

Have we explicitly said yet that if it isn't listed in the oversubscription criteria, it doesn't make a difference to admissions?

Things that don't help you get into a school:

  • having gone there yourself
  • working nearby
  • (typically) going to the nursery next door
  • needing wraparound care
  • having a grandparent living in catchment
  • thinking a particular school is a bit shit

And while we're at it, local authorities who suffer particular oversubscription headaches are very careful to check residence. Renting somewhere while you still own somewhere else may not count. Moving at the wrong time may not count. Pretending to live at your sister's house may not count.

Appeals go on objective criteria - did the local authority misapply the rules? See the "don't care" list above: the appeals board doesn't care about that either.

notquitehuman · 20/12/2015 22:47

teacherwith2kids - we get SO many sad face stories in the local paper. It's amazing! Do they think the head is going to magic up a place because they went crying to the local media? We are lucky that there are quite a few good schools in our town, but for some of them it's the outstanding scored, blazer wearing primary or nothing.

Enjolrass · 21/12/2015 06:47

There was a DM sad face last year from someone whose house overlooked the school and her older son went there.

But they sent the application late. So weren't offered a place. It beggars belief that people don't realise a late application often means that even if you should get a place, you might not if it's over subscribed.

There were first in the waiting list, so may have got a place later if someone refused their place.

But I can't understand why they ran to the DM. It was their fault.

We won an appeal. But it was secondary. I believe primary school appeals are harder to win. Not saying that as fact, but it's what I was told.

So it's really important that you think about what you want to do, look at the information and get the application in on time.

BondJayneBond · 21/12/2015 07:06

Maybe they thought that if they went to the DM, the school would feel obliged to give them a place to avoid bad publicity?

Although I suspect most readers would have agreed with you, Enjolrass.

I believe that you're right about primary school appeals being harder to win, because of the infant class size legislation. As far as I know, there's no class size legislation that applies to secondary school.

Enjolrass · 21/12/2015 07:15

Although I suspect most readers would have agreed with you, Enjolrass.

The people we know, didn't.

But that's only a small sample size. So may be they did.

I don't think people who haven't been through the admissions process like to admit it's not as cut and dried as they thought.

Sils eldest dd is almost 3 and she will be applying next year. She is convinced she will get a place where her parents live, 30 miles away. Because that's where she went and her cousins children live and her mum is in the catchment. She is planning to move in a couple of years and doesn't get that, that means nothing.

She just can't grasp that since the school is over subscribed, she is unlikely to get a place. It's like she doesn't want to face up to it.

AmethystMoon · 21/12/2015 07:21

Can anyone explain the appeals please? If there are, say, 30 places and those are all offered and accepted. How could anyone that appeals possibly win?

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 21/12/2015 07:45

There are limited conditions under which a class size can be increased in reception, yr1 and 2. One of those is by winning an appeal.

However the criteria for winning appeals for those year groups are very strict. It mostly boils down to the LA having made a mistake AND if they hadn't made that mistake you would have got a place.

Illegal admissions criteria or the LA having made an unreasonable decision are also a possibility. The criteria for 'unreasonable' is a legal one though and is very high.

Enjolrass · 21/12/2015 07:55

We wouldn't have won a primary appeal with the same argument that we won the secondary appeal with.

We managed to prove dds circumstances, outweighed the schools argument. But because there isn't class size limits in secondary she got in.

That said the school year still only has 360 pupils in it. Which is the same as every other year.

I know us and at least one other family won. So I assume that other places became available, but they didn't give a place to people on the waiting list.

EveryoneAnon · 21/12/2015 08:02

Our local rag told of a story where parents living on the same road of an over-subscribed, highly sought after primary school didn't bother to apply, assuming they'd automatically get it as their choice.

They were therefore allocated a school 4 miles away in the roughest part of town. Now they face an 8 mile journey whereas they could have just crossed the road on foot.

Last year someone put just one choice, hoping it would mean they get it because they hadn't put an alternative! As a result, they got a school that wouldn't have featured on their list of 3 preferences.

It's really quite incredible what lengths people will go to, to try and unsuccessfully 'work' the system!

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 21/12/2015 08:13

You might have won a ks2 appeal. Yr 3 is the point where the class size rules no longer apply and you can win on the balance of prejudice.

While we are talking about appeals...
Everyone has the right to an appeal but you need to be realistic about your chances of winning. Accepting or rejecting the school you are offered does not affect your chances of winning at all. Rejecting it will leave you without a school though and the LA don't have any obligation to find you another one. It is your responsibility to ensure that your child is in education by the time your child reaches statutory school age.

lozster · 21/12/2015 08:22

My boy isn't even 3 yet but will be applying next year Sad. This thread made me go to my council website to fact check what I thought I knew and download their 94 page PDF. I've confirmed that there are indeed catchment areas but if oversubscribed they go to siblings and distance after SN and in care criteria of course. We are in catchment about 2 minutes walk away from our preferred school. I am a bit worried though as every kid I know who is 'going' there has a sibling already there where as my boy is an only child. I'm going to have to manage his expectations as we go to a PTA play group there and he shouts 'that's my school' every time we pass.

On a side note, my blood boiled as I read the criteria for church schools. I am SO glad I moved to a village with two nondenominational primaries and not to a village where the only school is an oversubscribed c of e primary. I can't believe these places are still supported by ANY public money in this day and age and yet get to discriminate on sectarian criteria that seem de facto racist.

BondJayneBond · 21/12/2015 08:23

It's really quite incredible what lengths people will go to, to try and unsuccessfully 'work' the system!

One problem, of course, is that occasionally things work out in the family's favour - e.g. parent puts school A down 3 times. Child gets allocated a place at school A because they live, say, 0.5 miles away, and that year the distance cut off was 0.51 miles. Parent is wrongly convinced that child got a place because they put the school down 3 times, and starts advising everyone else to do the same because "it worked for us!"

lozster · 21/12/2015 08:53

Bond - exactly!

I spoke to a lady in the park with her grand-daughter who told me she had just picked up her grand child from the pre-school on site but privately run at the oversubscribed primary of my choice. The child was from a town 6 miles away but the family believed she would get in because they had chosen the pre school. I just nodded and smiled...

mummytime · 21/12/2015 09:17

Some church schools do have loads of criteria, but even though oversubscribed always get to the plain distance one (DCs C of E primary). Of course others barely move out of their top criteria (local Catholic secondary where the cut off is usually in the non-Catholic sibling criteria).

notquitehuman · 21/12/2015 09:54

lozster - it drives me mad too! We are actually in the catchment for an amazing school, but it's Catholic. There are only two decent schools in our town that aren't CoE or other religion. Primary schools should just be primary schools IMO.

With regards to the DM sad face crowd; are there any headteachers who would worry about 'bad publicity' in these cases? Surely parents running to the papers shows how desirable and over subscribed the school is?

Pengweng · 21/12/2015 12:09

bump

Naty1 · 21/12/2015 15:49

ours list care but not sen. is that common?
rather annoyingly ours have changed rules this year giving priority to siblings before 2016, so if dd1 does get in as first born, dd2 will be lower on the list than other siblings.
they have also taken the closest school bit out. so people in the middle of village could be top for both schools
its all luck really

has anyone asked schools how many siblings they expect?

and yes priority catchment is whole village, except last student last yr was only 0.3 miles

maybe an automatic bit showing approx distance to each school on the online system.

thing is if you dont get in and end up elsewhere, if its not closest school plus youre long way away, you may lose out on siblings... so youve lost out twice

if theyre going to build more houses they need more schools (here anyway)

lilydaisyrose · 21/12/2015 16:02

I can't believe what you all have to go through - what a headache. I live in Scotland, you apply for your catchment school - job done. I hope you all get the schools you wish for for your DCs.

Jesabel · 21/12/2015 16:05

Though from friends in Scotland I know there is a big issue with over crowded schools in cities as they have to give all children in catchment a space.

Chattymummyhere · 21/12/2015 16:42

The school we are applying for I think is expecting a good 60%+ siblings from talk in the office. I personally know of 10siblings applying plus my dd, they take 60pupils for reception.

Their criteria is;

Looked after children
Sibling in catchment (no reception age kids live in catchment, think area people move to with young children then never leave so it's currently full of mainly childless or 50+ aged people)
Siblings outside of catchment
Catchment
Outside of catchment

After this coming intake they will also be taking staff children before catchment but after siblings.

livvylongpants · 21/12/2015 17:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

hazeyjane · 21/12/2015 19:03

If it is named in the EHCP the school have to provide a place - however before they are named they can state that they can't meet your childs needs, but as I understand it this is pretty rare.

Ipsea provide good information wrt applying for schools and SEN - this page has the relevant info

www.ipsea.org.uk/what-you-need-to-know/ehc-plans/choice-of-school-or-college