To let my baby catch chicken pox?

[Rumplestrumpet]

In brief, my husband, baby and me are due to go away for 3 days with another family next week. They're a lovely couple though, tbh, our husbands have nothing in common, so it's really just us wives pushing it. She told me yesterday that her son has come down with chicken pox. Our baby is almost 6 months old and has never had it, though DH and I have.

I spoke to my HV today and she was very relaxed about it - they have to get it at some point, at least now you're on mat leave so won't have to take time off to look after her. She is exclusively breast fed so you can comfort her with the breast - it's your call.

DH would happily ditch the whole thing, but I feel like I still want to go... But then I will feel terribly if baby catches it and is in a lot of pain....

Anyone had a small baby with chicken pox? Is it really awful? ie worse than when they're older?

Welcome advice please!

Fanny - I'm not advising, advocating or suggesting . Nor did I say 'wait until they are teenagers to vaccinate'. Do you usually struggle with reading and comprehension?

Fanny - That is what second doses are for.

Ideal would be for children to actually catch these diseases and be immune for life. If that hasn't happened, you can vaccinate them. Check immunity in blood test and vaccinate again if it hasn't quite worked.

As I said bumbley, do use whatever term you wish for what you were doing. And you must struggle with comprehension if you think that's what I said, which given your punctuation I presume you do. You said that you think there's a case to be made for vaccinating older children and teenagers if they've not had the illness already. Given that the vaccine is less effective in teenagers than in children, it's perfectly legitimate to point out that there is a risk inherent in being a teenager who hasn't acquired immunity, and that addressing this before it gets to that stage is preferable to not doing. One can feel that a younger 'cutoff' age is ideal whilst also making the case for vaccinating people older than that (teenagers and indeed adults) who for whatever reason lack immunity.

In Australia and the US intentionally exposing your child to chicken pox, when there is a perfectly good vaccine, is tantamount to child abuse.

I can't understand anyone who wouldn't get the vaccine for their child (medical reasons notwithstanding).

Are you suggesting second doses/boosters would eliminate the problem of lower effectiveness in teenagers and adults cote? Can you link to anything I could read if so?

Also I think we're better leaving what's 'ideal' out of it. There are clearly a myriad of different positions on that one, particularly given that the risks and the tolerance of them will vary from family to family.

DS2 was 18mo when he got CP and awful, truly awful. He was covered from head to toe - his scalp, his back, his tummy. They were all over his bum and his bits so every time he wee'd he was screaming because it was stinging. He had them inside his ears, down in his ear canals, so was screaming whenever he lay down and he couldn't sleep except sitting up which meant we didn't sleep as we had to play turns holding him. Holding him irritated him, presumably they were itchy, so even that was a trial. They were in his mouth so he didn't eat and BFing was a struggle. He had a temperature. The spots around the side of his face and ears were so bad that they joined together to make huge scabs which got infected. It was around day nine before they all scabbed over and three weeks before all the scabs were gone however four months later he still has scars around his ears.

By contrast, 6yo DS1 got them at the same time and wasn't at all unwell. He had a couple of dozen spots, they were totally scabbed over by day four and had vanished completely by day six.

You never know how they'll react to it until they catch it, they might be fine like DS1 was or take it really badly like DS2 did. Having done it will all three children at the same time, I'd never deliberately infect my DC with it.

"Given that the vaccine is less effective in teenagers than in children, it's perfectly legitimate to point out that there is a risk inherent in being a teenager who hasn't acquired immunity, and that addressing this before it gets to that stage is preferable to not doing"

Are you saying that all children should be vaccinated against chicken pox and none should be left to actually have the disease?

Vaccinated children: 90% develop immunity
Vaccinated teenagers: 75% develop immunity
(both figures are from your NHS link)

The difference in vaccine effectiveness does not seem so different as to warrant such a major vaccination effort, especially considering that vaccine immunity vanes and possibly leaves you open to catching the disease as an adult when it is most dangerous.

Nope. Why on earth would you think that?

My DC's caught it and it was fucking awful, the eldest was 3.5 and the youngest 6 months. No way would I deliberately infect my children with a disease. It's bizarre IMO.

My youngest was covered with blisters, in his nappy, in his mouth, in his hair. Terrible, horrible illness.

There was a MNetter many moons ago whose child died from CP complications and even though the risk is teeny, tiny it's not a risk I would be happily skipping into. It's NOT the same sort of risk as crossing the street - we have to do that on a daily basis. Calculated risks are one thing, but you cannot effectively calculate how your child will react to an illness.

Chicken pox has a two-week incubation period.

Incubation is one to three weeks, it varies. For my DC the incubation period was one week. DS1 came down with it and then bang on a week later DS2 and DD got it.

Also what's the evidence that vaccine immunity wanes, and do you not think this could be addressed with boosters in the same way you say the lower effectiveness of the vaccine in teenagers and adults could be?

So what are you saying re vaccines in adolescence, Fanny?

If you are not saying all children should be vaccinated against chicken pox, what seems to be the problem with "Let children get it while they are children, and if they haven't, vaccinate them in adolescence"?

So what if chicken pox vaccine is slightly less effective in adolescence (75%) vs in childhood (90%)?

"what's the evidence that vaccine immunity wanes"

There is lots of evidence that vaccine immunity wanes. Look it up.

"do you not think this could be addressed with boosters in the same way you say the lower effectiveness of the vaccine in teenagers and adults could be?"

Sure it could. But there is no system in place to continue to vaccinate adults every 10-15 years or so, AFAIK.

Fanny, do I need to point out again that these were terms that you felt the need to use?

I said, "I think there is a possible case to be made for vaccinating older children /teenagers (particularly girls) if they haven't contracted it in childhood ."

I'm not suggesting "waiting" until a particular age to vaccinate as you seem to want to argue.

I'm saying that as the vaccine is less effective in adolescence and chicken pox also becomes more unpleasant and dangerous then, ideally everyone would have immunity before that time ie by late childhood. It's not for me to decide whether this should be through vaccination or contracting the disease. If a person is without immunity by late childhood, this is preferably the point at which vaccination should be considered rather than waiting until the teens (though I fully understand the vaccine is expensive and not affordable to everyone). Basically, ideally all teenagers would either have had the illness or the opportunity to be vaccinated before hitting their teens.

As for looking it up, no joy. Tried, couldn't find any evidence that the effectiveness of the chicken pox vaccine wanes, much less that this couldn't be addressed with boosters. But I'm prepared to believe there is evidence, and that I just didn't find it. Link?

All addressed already bumbley.

Fanny, do you really want to argue that vaccine effectiveness just isn't good enough if the child is 13 compared to 12 years and 364 days? Maybe it's ok to just accept "older children/teens" without getting too caught up in specifics?

"Tried, couldn't find any evidence that the effectiveness of the chicken pox vaccine wanes"

Can't have tried very hard. This took me one minute to find:

Effectiveness over time of varicella vaccine

Results Although the adjusted overall effectiveness of the vaccine was 87% (95% confidence interval, 81%-91%; P

"All addressed already bumble."

Well, no, actually, they weren't. You made a mistake and misinterpreted what I wrote.

www.theguardian.com/science/occams-corner/2014/may/15/real-reason-british-public-chickenpox-vaccine-shingles

I have heard it before that children with chickenpox help older people gain herd immunity from shingles. But having had a not-so-bad case of CP as a 6 year old, and then a very awful case of shingles in my 20s I would rather not put my kids through shingles. It is common to get shingles on your face, in your eyes and mouth. And I'm probably going to get shingles again because I developed it so young. I don't want my children potentially suffering life threatening complications to keep my immunity or other folks immunity up.

Proper 2 part vaccination will provide immunity to most children. Some may never get immune, but neither does having a dose of CP mean you can't catch it again. I know a 5 year old who is otherwise fit and well who has had it 3 times and each time is awful for him.

I think the US and Australia vaccinate against CP, so it's not just yanks.

No, that would be idiotic bumbley. Although to be serious for a moment, chicken pox at 12 years and any days would is likely to be sufficiently unpleasant that I'd do everything I could to acquire immunity for a child before that anyway.

You're right cote, I didn't actually look at all. Confession time. I just wanted you to find something since you're the one who said immunity would wane, but I thought you'd be more likely to respond to what I wrote than me saying that the burden of proof is on the person who made the claim. Cheers! But as we've established, I certainly don't suggest that 'all children should be vaccinated against chicken pox and none should be left to actually have the disease', which is what you raised the issue of waning immunity in response to. WRT there being no system in place to continue vaccinating adults, obviously this is true, just as there's no system to vaccinate children in the UK on any widespread scale. I don't know of any reason people couldn't test their immunity and if desired receive the vaccine privately though, as now?

CoteDAzur that study you have linked to is from 2004, and openly states that booster vaccine may eliminate the problem of decreased immunity. As someone said earlier when the vaccine first came out only single doses were given, after the 10 year study the recommendation was for a child to get a booster.

So what if it's from 2004?

I haven't said boosters don't help. Of course they do. But there is no booster system in place to keep giving vaccines to adults every 10 years or so, is there?

Anyway anyone thinking of vaccination or not, pox parties etc it's best to research the latest studies and make your own informed decision.

Fanny, any illness can be unpleasant at any age. If you're worried about the potential unpleasantness of CP then why aren't you advocating vaccination at 12 months old? It's not guaranteed to be worse at 12+ years.