To think that it IS a *bit* stupid to give £1000s to someone you haven't met?

[StrawberryTeaLeaf]

I'm just listening to Woman's Hour on catch up and there is yet more coverage of the dating scams and an interview with a police officer. Yet again, as often lately, she (and Jane Garvey) are at huge pains to say that falling for these scams is not a sign of stupidity.

It is a bit, though, isn't it?

Isn't it slightly daft to keep insisting otherwise just to spare some blushes?

I think deep down they know but they're so starved of love/attention that it almost feels worth it as long as the attention doesn't go away. That's why even very intelligent people get conned, they can't bear to lose the connection so will keep going and going till there's nothing left and then they have to face the reality.

Seriously? You never send money to people you don't know? How do you pay your bills? Never shop in markets, always pay cash and wait for the receipt? What if you buy a second-hand car - there's absolutely no way to guarantee it's not bent.

Oh come on. Direct Debits have a guarantee system. Credit card transactions have great protection. Even debit card card payments have some chargeback protection. (Personally I always use a credit card for transactions larger than £100 if at all possible precisely for the superior protection.)

The biggest risk I have ever taken was paying a dealer about £900 by Cashier's cheque for a car when I was a skint graduate but I had at least seen the car, driven the car, looked at the engine, met the salesman and had a go at assessing him while I looked him in the eye. The log book, receipt and car keys were handed to me as I handed the cheque over and it was STILL a risk but a calculated, mitigated one.

You can't equate paying bills and purchasing cars in the UK with blindly sending £££££s into the ether with nothing in return. The dating scams are comparable to other scams not comparable to shopping. That really is shrugging off the need to take sensible self-protective steps.

I think deep down they know but they're so starved of love/attention that it almost feels worth it as long as the attention doesn't go away. That's why even very intelligent people get conned

Oh that's interesting. Like an addiction?

It could never happen to me because I never have any money - I was absolutely shocked this summer when working overseas how many British women had been sucked into marriages with much younger men, and how abusive - in various ways - their husbands were. It must be awful to think that you've only been married for the money/visa etc - but even worse to have to stay with someone who has no regard for you whatsoever because you've poured your life savings into their family home etc

It doesn't only happen to older people though: I have very good friend who married in her 20s, to someone she'd met whilst studying in the UK. She went to met her then-fiance's family, and his mother told her not to marry him. She thought this was because of religious/cultural differences - it was only when he got to her country, and turned into a violent and abusive arsehole that she realised what the mother had actually been saying. Sadly, she couldn't afford to divorce that fucker before he got residency there - but at least he's no longer abusing her (though I have no doubt he's still fucking up other women's lives 20 years later).

I think you're missing my point in order to strengthen yours. That's okay, I'm not here to battle on with this.

Totally agree with SGB &co that perceived pressure to be in a relationship makes folks, and especially women, more vulnerable.

No, not on purpose Garlick, I just don't see the parallel. In fact, thinking about how used we all are to trying to be 'savvy consumers' and the various mechanisms that are in place to help us keep our money safe, I can feel myself swinging back a bit towards gawping incredulity that people Do this again.

Nicki's post is interesting, though. I can make more sense of it thinking of the con-men heaping sweet nothings into the ears of the unaccustomed and that becoming intoxicating.

I suppose, in my mind, the moment that you press the button on internet banking would equate to the moment you step into a stranger's car. I'd expect that moment to be the reality check. It must take an extremely compelling force to sweep someone over that threshold of discomfort and 'wrongness' that that entails.

Exactly like an addiction. Chemical processes in the brain are similar to drug addiction apparently and can give rushes similar to those experienced with cocaine use.

Very hard to fight against. They get addicted to the attention and then once the money runs out the attention is abruptly withdrawn and the brain returns to normal albeit looking like "fuck! I have no money left, I want it back now".

That should say "chemical processes in the brain when in love"

Where do the victims typically think the 'boyfriends' are? I remember reading the ones claiming to be military men in the ME. They must be good stories or you'd be pushing very hard to meet if you thought it was love, wouldn't you?

Some of them probably not that eager to meet. Probably worried these hot, fit, military men would be disappointed in person.

And getting back into the dating game is daunting anyway, isn't it? Hmm, you're making a lot of sense Nicki. It's all so sad.

Is it always women though? Or do you think it happens to men too and it's either perceived differently or they don't go to the police because they know they've been daft and don't want to admit it?

The gender split was addressed on the programme Hip. I think they said something like 60/30 and they did say that men are less likely to report.

My exMIL fell for one of these scams, but she was sort of a typical victim. Older, lives alone, not in terribly good health, well off but a bit lonely.

I have to say, though, I have also always thought you had to be a bit dim to fall for it, but the man who got her to part with a good chunk of money was very, very clever. He tapped into her serious hobby (bridge) and pretended to be interested as well. It wasn't overnight by any means. It was a very slow build up of the 'friendship' over months and months and he never actually outright asked for money, just somehow led the conversations they had around to the point where she offered it freely.

I'm with Strawberry - can't see the link with examples given by Garlick.

I've not heard of this catfish programme but I'm wondering why anyone would have sympathy with scammers - presumably down on their luck?

I don't think it would be hard to scam people precisely because some seem to want to trust. Even after awful experiences, I hear people say "I don't want to lose faith in people". I cannot see what is wrong with having too little faith in anyone to hand over your life savings to them.

Really interesting thread. Has anyone read Elizabeth Jane Howard's novel Falling? Fictionalised memoir of how she was targeted and scammed by a 'boyfriend'.

I suppose I'm sympathetic because I've known both con people and victims, and seen how it works. Additionally, it's not impossible that XH2 was in it mainly to get on the property ladder. That's a long story involving heavy emotional/psychological abuse and I'll never really know - facts are, though, he ended up with a nice flat while I ended up with a shitty one, and he left me for a woman who owned a house in an even better part of town.

You do have to remember that con men are very clever, and play the victim over a number of months.

My father, a hard-nosed northern businessman, and his friend (who'd sold his company for £millions) had fun playing the stock market together. They were royally conned by someone, even visiting his offices in Holland etc and together they managed to be fleeced of £thousands (my father never admitted how much). You would never have said either man was stupid, but they were completely taken in. This was forty years ago, so there have always been scams around. It really could happen to anyone.

He sounds vile Garlick. I hope she's making him miserable

Thanks, Strawberry! Me, too!

That sounds complicated Maryz. So some actual gay people who can't live an openly gay life where they are live fantasy gay life online involving slightly dishonest 'LTRs' with real people?

These victims have been groomed though - it's not fair to say they're stupid. They're vulnerable. You would never say a teenager was stupid for being groomed by an adult.