to speak to DS's friend's mum and the teacher about this?

[RainWildsGirl]

DS is in Y1, about to turn 6yo. He has been best friends with 'Henry' since reception. I get on well with Henry's mum and the boys have had plenty of 'playdates' (hate that term but it does work!) and get on well. both boys have their boisterous moments but I have never had an issue that worried me when I've had them at mine and Henry's mum has never said there has been a problem at their house either.

a new boy 'Josh' started in September. this boy has an awful lot of issues (no SN as far as I know), there have been many incidents of bad behaviour from Josh, swearing, inappropriate games/gestures and he has exposed himself to classmates.

DS said he doesn't play with Josh because, in his words 'he is naughty and does bad things and I don't like him' but it seems Josh has now befriended Henry so by association DS now plays with Josh because, again DS's words 'I want to play with Henry and Henry plays with Josh so I have to play with Josh'. DS has also told me of a couple of occasions of 'Henry was in trouble because Josh told him to do xxxx and he did'.

DS's behaviour has taken a turn at home, rude, aggressive at times. I queried with his teacher at parents evening and she assured me his behaviour in class hasn't altered and he is very good in class. However today I have been called in because DS said 'fuck' in the lunch room. DS says that he was with Henry and Josh and Henry told him to say it so he did. DS has no idea what the word means, it is not in our household vocab, even when the DC and not in earshot, in fact I cant think of anyone the DC spend time with that use the term so I know he cant have picked it up anywhere else. Teacher was fine about it and said that she knew it was completely out of character for him to say something like that and confirmed that when asked DS didn't know what the word meant.

So to the point:

1. do I speak with Henry's mum and explain what happened so she is aware and can speak with Henry about it? not in an accusatory way as I'm fairly sure the origin of the word will be with Josh, but so she can try and nip this behaviour in the bud.

2. do I speak to DS's teacher and ask for him to be separated from Josh? I know they are only young but I do not want DS being influenced in this way. DS is very intelligent (that's not just me, he is overachieving on his levels etc) and I don't want him thinking school is for messing about and bad behaviour.

Thoughts please?

My DS is 9 with severe SN, he's been in a school (mistakenly, my fault) with children with severely challenging behaviour. Most of those children swore horrifically. The school he's in now has one or two children in his class that swear badly.

DS has the mental age of a 2 year old, and knows not to swear. He knows not to hit and he knows that if he mimicked bad behaviour he will have consequences.

Your DS sounds very bright, so I assume easier to talk things through with than my DS.

At the end of the day the children will learn swear words and bad behaviour off their peers, especially as they get older. Your job is to teach your DS not to do these things, by 'blaming' another child (and bear in mind I don't doubt that the other child has taught your DS these things) you are telling DS that his behaviour is acceptable as long as there's someone else to blame.

I'm not suggesting you come down like a ton of bricks on DS but you should in the first instance inform him that it's a bad word and if he says it again there will be consequences. The same with bad behaviour.

Also maybe teach your DS that josh might not have what he has and he should be kind to josh but not copy what he does. That way your child will be well rounded and un judgemental as an adult.

Really quite horrified that anyone would think encouraging their child not to play with the Joshes of the world could possibly ever be a good thing. I spent most of my time explaining to my kids at this age how important it was to include the non-typical kids amd make allowances for them, even when their own instinct was to avoid them.

They did of course end up with a whole smorgasbord of mates, including some kids who made play dates very interesting indeed (i still have to monitor one particular child like a hawk even now they are teenagers). And of course it was these kids who spilt the beans on father christmas and puberty and so on.

Which if course is inevitable and normal and ok. I might not like some of my kids' mates, but the day my kids narrow down their mates to likeminded middle-class identikits will be the day i will think i have failed them.

I understand where the OP is coming from, some kids are very much influenced by their peers and pick up behaviours that they would never have considered, if they were not in the company of that particular child.

One of my mantra's to my kids is 'choose your friends wisely!' it doesn't mean they won't develop empathy and compassion and kindness but hopefully it will make them wise to know how to choose friends who are positive influences on them and have similar values as they have.

In the OP's case, they are only little and probably having a great laugh at all the antics they are getting up to, but this is the time to begin instilling in them that sometimes the wrong friends can take you down a path you would never normally go.

I would have lots of sympathy for the little boy too, and he clearly needs support to learn what is respectful and not, what is appropriate and not, and hopefully the school are giving him that support

I think its important to teach kids to choose friends wisely. Good friends are worth their weight in gold, through school and life. Good friends should always have your back, be your wing man. I teach my kids to choose friends who are kind and loyal

And I teach them to think inependantly, to use good judgement and to be kind

Some of my best best friends were the naughty kids in school

Thank you everyone. Have calmed down a wee bit this morning!

I have spoken to DS again this morning. I have reiterated that I understand he didn't know it was a naughty word but if he does it again I will be really cross as now he does know not to use it.

I spoke to him again about it being ok to say 'no' to you friends if they are doing things/asking him to do things he thinks are wrong or bad.

I have taken on board the points about not ostracising Josh. The line I have taken with DS that I feel happy with is that he should think carefully about whether the games Josh suggests are nice games and if he doesn't think so that it is ok to suggest something else or go and play with others if he wants to.

I will speak to his teacher this afternoon, just to say I have spoke with DS about the incident and about making wise choices with his behaviour and would appreciate any feedback if she feels his behaviour is slipping in class.

thanks for your thoughts.

The thing about swearing is that its not something that you need to learn (like saying please and thank you), you only need to catch. It doesn't matter that you don't swear at home or you censor all the tv. You can't shut everybody's mouth in the world.

Like, i just heard across the street a woman shouting at her kid -- shut the fucking door!

Hi OP

He sounds like he has a supportive and loving background, he will be fine.

Empathy for kids that are badly behaved doesn't always come easy, you are not alone, it's easy to label them. I remember years ago being at a party, where the host child was the wild and uncontrollable one in the class, the naughty kid. Chaotic life. Mum drove her DC to the primary school where my DC attended every day, they lived in a social deprived area. (That in itself to me showed her commitment to her kids) We are terribly middle class here don't you know

The only kids that came to that party were mine and my friends, how awful, just how bloody awful and judgemental was that of the other parents? My friends happen to be Doctors, I remember them being shocked at the NIMBY attitude of the rest of the parents. Would be a strange old world if they judged their patients wouldn't it?

Too many , sorry.

It's all a learning experience OP. I had to teach my DD to say no to a "friend" who was actually a little horror and ostracised DD from others. Took a whole term for DD to stand up for herself.

I do understand where the OP is coming from as it is really upsetting and I think your first thought is always to protect your DCs. In Y1 my instinct would have been to want to keep DS away from the children who were in trouble etc but now he is in Y3 I actually encourage the opposite, I have explained many times not to join in etc, now and then he gets in trouble for doing something someone else has told him to but I just reiterate that he needs to think for himself.

I was really proud of him recently, he has been spat on, punched and kicked repeatedly by a new child who does seem to have some behavioural issues but he has carried on giving that child a chance and has remained friends with him and been really understanding of it all, I have encouraged him to discuss any incidents with his teacher and me as they have not completely stopped but DS said to me, 'do you know mum, X can be a really kind friend sometimes'. He is not getting into trouble with this other child as 99% of the time he knows better but he is not excluding him which is great.

Zany same happened with my friend's DS. He was getting picked on by a child but he refused to let it affect him. Turned out the child was actually seriously ill and the stress was affecting him.

They are good friends and the boy is on the mend.

Actually that said, it doesn't always turn out well, my older DS is in Y5 and he befriended the child who causes the issues in the class, he constantly gave him chances as he really liked him and eventually I agreed to let him sleepover here (there have been many issues since nursery with him and he is very disruptive in class even at 10) his behaviour was so awful when he was here DS1 was devastated and is now keeping his distance a bit but at the end of the day DS has made the decision about it and I have never discouraged or encouraged the friendship but I will respect DSs decision now of course.

That's great TheHouse, I think with DS2s friend there are behavioural issues that are being diagnosed and the mum is really lovely. I think children can be really understanding but getting the balance is hard for both us as parents looking on and the DCs too.

As a foster carer I have cared for many "Josh"s over the years.

One particular "Josh" behaved as your "Josh" did when aged 5. Later in his school life he was diagnosed with ADHD and Tourettes, however at 5 everything was put down to his tragic start in life and so medical issues were not explored, despite us knowing there were problems. Of course most parents asked their perfectly behaved and extremely bright children not to play with "Josh" and he never once got asked to play or received a party invitation, not once. No one ever came to his parties also. At the school gate no other parents would speak to us, assuming there was something in his home life causing his behaviour (they did not know he was fostered). By the time of his formal diagnosis it was too late, he had already been labelled by other children and their parents, and sadly by teachers also. He did not make a single friend during his school years.

Yet at home, our other children and other foster children, did not behave badly or use "Josh"s bad language at the moment (more than once). They were told it was not acceptable for them, and that "Josh" had a difficulty meaning he could not help shouting out - just as some children may have a bad leg and could not help limping. Even young children seemed to understand this, and accept it. They loved "Josh" as we did, the most loving, kindest, most generous child I have ever met. It broke our hearts that "Josh" had no friends, and he tried so very, very hard (much too hard in some ways) to make friends, and sadly other children used this against him, and he was quietly bullied by the "well behaved" children. But as "Josh" was louder he would always get the blame. And his label of the naughty child remained. One day he was told by a teacher that Tourettes was no excuse to swear...we removed him from school the same day.

"Josh" as an adult remains the most wonderful, loving person I have ever had the honour to meet. Yet his childhood has affected him deeply. He is too kind, too nice, too happy should anyone befriend him or give him an invitation. He is over the top grateful for any kind word or deed by others, he is far too generous, far too helpful, far too loving, works far too hard when others give him the opportunity to work. But he has never, not even once, ever thought badly of anyone else, or complained about the problems that still haunt him daily. And he still tries so hard not to swear.

Poor Josh

Leopardgecko, your post made me teary. Thank God there are people like you in this world.

OP, why this need to label and exclude Josh? It is heartbreaking

maybe josh is a bad influence - I don't know- but your reaction is unreasonable - you clearly think henry is not the problem and want to get his mother inside - it reads as if you think Henry will play with josh over your DS and you want to make sure he doesn't?
my DS is 5 and they seem to pick up these things from their friends - naughty words become funny and they try and use them - for ours they range between the f words and also the bizarrely used peanut -(he thinks these are equally bad) - they pick them up. I don't think my concern I to find out where they picked them up but just to educate them that using them is wrong.

Leopard
Being really pragmatic isn't this a perfect situation for fostering resilience and good decision making for your son OP? Rather than talking to Henry's mum and the teacher encourage your son to desist from
people making him do what he doesn't want to or thinks are naughty. Talk to him about how it was lovely having one friend and how he can get Josh to play what he wants to rather than do what Josh says and recognise when situations might get out of hand.

"X told me to do it" is the oldest and worst excuse in the books. If I hear it from my boys they are in double trouble - once for misbehaving and once for not assuming responsibility for their own behaviour. I'm sure if "Josh" was hurting or upsetting your ds, then a good teacher would try and separate them. But equally no teacher is going to want to micromanage friendships just on your say so.

Picking their friends for them is very tempting but (ime) never ends well.

In your position I would keep talking to your ds about making good choices and encourage a wide range of friendships, then let them sort it out for themselves.

Leopard, what a heartbreaking story. Thank God that child had you and your family in his corner.

WRT the OP: I agree with others that it is not up to the teachers to enforce some sort of separation between Josh and your son. And if your son repeated a "naughty" word, then he must accept the fallout from that, whether it was out of character or not (even though I personally think it's hardly the end of the world when children learn that taboo words exist). He may not have known what it meant, but perhaps he enjoyed the thrill of saying something that would provoke such a strong reaction. Children often egg each other on like this, it is all part and parcel of developing social awareness.

Josh is just a little boy, not a demon seed. Your son can choose to play with him or not. Would you really prefer it if your son and Henry banded together to exclude Josh? And as for bad influences, your son will have to learn to behave properly no matter what he observes other children doing.

Thanks for your lovely words DotForShort but I just muddle through like the rest of us x