to think it's disgraceful that Labour MPs are condoning gender segregation?

[OTheHugeManatee]

I thought Labour were supposed to be against discrimination. But I'm hearing multiple reports of Labour MPs attending gender segregated rallies around the Olham by-election and uttering not a peep about it.

AIBU to think it's disgraceful that once again women's right to equality is being quietly set aside for other political priorities? And by the party that makes the most noise about equality, no less?

Fucking hypocrites

I stopped attending church on my own after the old man next to me started rubbing his hand on my thigh. I am a white Christian woman. I do not actively choose to sit next to men if I attend a public meeting on my own. I do not see a problem with self-imposed segregation if both sexes are in the same room at the same meeting with the same opportunity to participate.I do wonder if the World I live in is really so vastly different from the utopian dream of social sexual equality others see as their reality?

Most people think they already live in the utopian dream. Most women realize at one point in time that we do not. Many men go on living in that illusion forever.

Your experience is exactly the sort of thing because of which I am not opposed to sex-segregated seating arrangements.

Even more shockingly, I would be in favour of some women-only political meetings. Because it has been scientifically proven that men talk more than women, take up more space, are taken more seriously, etc.

It would be nice if sex segregation was not necessary, but it won't help any to pretend it isn't while it still very much is.

Apparently, the photo shows that some women chose to sit on the "men's side". Which shows that the other women chose to sit away from men, which is their right. I don't see a problem with that. If they do not feel safe sitting next to men, then they don't feel safe. You cannot force them.

If you want something to get angry about, what about the fact that girls are forced to do different sports than boys in school? That is a "separate and un-equal" thing that negatively affects girls, and doesn't just look bad on photos.

DrasticAction: "Having men one side and women the other is absurd but it doesn't discriminate against women more than against men

the same could be said for apartheid."

Not at all. The apartheid system wasn't merely about segregation. Everything black people had was worse, usually much worse: schools, public transport, public amenities and spaces, houses, jobs. Apartheid was not simply separating black people and white people.

I'm still waiting to hear about Labour's repressive equalities legislation.......

@hackmum: Yes. I am a bit worried about that ocurring in sex segregated schools if they are government-funded (in private schools I hope the competition will make sure girls' schools are just as good as boys'), but it is not as big an issue.

One absolutely has to keep one's eyes open - I could see it happen that women get the the worst seats in such a situation - but when women want to stay away from men, there's usually a reason for it, and that's not "boy cooties."

I've clicked on the links within the links.

So what seems to be happening is that at political events, prominent women are organising a women's section within that event.

So there is the general event, which includes mostly men and a few women. And then there is a women's section, which has only women in it. There is no men only section.

This is the same as feminist organising. There is often a main event for all women, with self organised groups of only black women, or only lesbians, within the main event. There is no group that is designated for only for white women, because that would be racist and bizarre.

I don't really recognise the characterisation of Muslim women on this thread. Muslim women, in my experience, do have good working relationships with men and work collaboratively and confidently ( That is just my experience; I'm not trying to criticise others). But there are some situations, including political situations, where women want to be together. Such rallies and events are an opportunity for women who want to organise with other women to network. I don't think at such events you are just a passive audience.

I don't see the problem and do not think it is being enforced.

Surely, though, you can't possibly be surprised by this? Hardly the first time it's happened.

yet all women who go to gyms have to share changing rooms with males.

What? I have never seen a gym, swimming baths or leisure centre with shared changing rooms. Where in the country is this happening? I haven't seen it once, never mind all.

I find it quite strange that so many posters believe if these women weren't segregated they wouldn't be able to come at all. Like that's normal or to be expected.

Are there a sizeable number of Muslim women residing in the UK who aren't allowed to go out without a male chaperone? I have never heard of this outside of awful backwards countries like Saudi Arabia and would be shocked to think this happens here with any kind of regularity.

Tell the police you're unable to leave the house without your husband and they'll tell you you're being abused

Everything black people had was worse, usually much worse: schools, public transport, public amenities and spaces, houses, jobs. Apartheid was not simply separating black people and white people

and everything women have esp muslim have is no different than men?.

Multiculturalism trumps feminism, as everyone knows.

Muslim women, in my experience, do have good working relationships with men

I suppose the Governer of the school had a good working relationship, she was in ear shot of what was going on after all.

drastic - whether Muslim women get a raw deal overall is irrelevant though isn't it? This is just about the seating in the meeting - and the women aren't at the back, or anything. They're just to one side, with men to the other. There's nothing inherently inferior about sitting on the left is there?

I'm still waiting to hear about Labour's repressive equalities legislation.......

Are you.Hmmmmmm.

Maybe while we are waiting you can enlighten us as to why your torn on this.

Purple the very fact they or the men have gone to sit in a different place is indicative of a much wider problem.

And every single person on this thread knows it.

Many posters who will not admit it, like I have, will like me, never ever have given a second thought as to putting myself with women at a meeting.

What? I have never seen a gym, swimming baths or leisure centre with shared changing rooms. Where in the country is this happening? I haven't seen it once, never mind all.

This is about all men who claim to be women getting access to female spaces. (No other requirements whatsoever. No, not even gender reassignment surgery.)
So, no, officially, you are not sharing changing rooms with males, but with "transwomen.

I wonder what happens if the two politically correct ideologies clash. (If they do. Many Muslim countries are quite fond of surgery as "cure" for homosexuality. However, I do wonder what Muslim women think of sharing facilities with fully intact males ...)

"Maybe while we are waiting you can enlighten us as to why your torn on this."

Shall I C&P my post?
"I am so torn about this one. I'm not entirely sure that it is the role of the Labour Party to reform the social structure of any particular group- the important thing is to get across the Labour message and get rid of the Tories. So I can see an argument for a pragmatic approach and allowing people to decide where they want to sit. And in a ward with a significant Muslim voters the last thing a prospective MP wants to do is alienate the voters! And there is no suggestion that the seating was being imposed on non Muslims- Muslim men were not, presumably, refusing to sit next to non Muslim women?"

Oh, for fuck's sake- it's not another bloody trans thread is it?

That's what I said Bertrand. I rather think it might be.

It's evidence of a culture where men and women are seen as different, inhabiting different social worlds, and more at ease within single-gender settings drastic. It isn't in itself evidence that one gender is seen as superior to the other. Conversely, it's perfectly possible to have a situation where men and women sit alongside each other, but the women are ignored, and seen as inferior, speak less than the men and are listened to even less. Integration isn't proof of equality, and segregation doesn't necessarily mean one sex is seen as superior to the other.

We segregate schools, clubs (guiding), social activities, etc and see this as normal in our culture. 30 years ago we would have sat the girls in one side of the classroom and boys in the other. Today we don't. But I think there are subtler ways of gently encouraging people who still feel more comfortable sitting with their own gender to feel at ease together than chastising them for it, or chastising the politicians who chose not to make a big deal of where they chose to sit.

I've been to plenty of meetings where the black people and the white people sat in seperate groups, because they'd arrived in different groups and sat with their mates. It's clearly not ideal, but I think that a speaker who came in and said "I'm not going to talk to you unless you mix up and sit in randomly allocated seating" would have been assumed to be mad, unless the talk was actually about community cohesion or something else relevant.

But I think there are subtler ways of gently encouraging people who still feel more comfortable sitting with their own gender to feel at ease together than chastising them for it, or chastising the politicians who chose not to make a big deal of where they chose to sit.

Yes. Like, for example, doing something against rape culture.

If you show them that men who put their uninvited hands on women's thighs are swiftly escorted out of the building and banned from the premises, then maybe they will soon feel safe sitting next to men.

However, I get the feeling that modern society is more about pretending that everyone is already living in a nice, feminist utopia, while there is still a long, long way to go.

Yes, absolutely vesta - but I wouldn't want to give the impression to a group of people who chose to self-segregate that the women are doing it only because they're at risk of unwanted attention, or - worse still - that the men do it just because they can't trust themselves not to assault women if they're sitting next to them. There's a whole load of reasons why cultures may chose to separate the men and women and it's just about putting the responsibility onto women to keep themselves away from men to avoid rape.

Sorry, that should have read "it's not just about putting the responsiblity onto women..."

Thanks Bertrand but that's rather one sided isn't it.

You have said your torn and that they should yada get votes for the party, but you have not put the other side in as to why your torn?

I don't quite understand you- but here goes. I don't think women and men shout sit separately. But I also think that if people have religious and cultural practices that don't negatively impact on other people, and if they take part in them willingly and without coercion, they should probably be allowed to do them.
That's why I'm torn.

I'm also quite interested in the disappearing OP.........