to be shocked at the undercover channel 4 documentary

[Idliketoteachtheworldtosing1]

Do you think it is unreasonable to be shocked at the revelations on the documentary about British Muslim women openly defending Isis in front of impressionable teenagers and children. The way I see it is if they want sharia law and despise our government and our western ways then why on earth stay here, leave and go and live in a Muslim country. That poor girl that was undercover was terrified of these evil women, the problem is the enemy is within. One of the women worked as a careers adviser! I really hope that the authorities go after the women shown in the documentary before they can corrupt any more young minds!!

Marking place while I watch it.

I can't stop thinking that if we had better vocabulary to distinguish extremists from sympathisers from IS activists from terrorists from perfectly normal Brits who just happen to be Muslim, we'd do better as a society at responding to all these complicated situations.

It was quite a banal programme to me. I've had plenty of colleagues over the years who in less guarded moments come out with some surprising stuff.

I just wish Umm L and her ilk would get up and go to Sham.

And stop clogging up local meeting halls that could be getting used for Tae Kwon Do or many other physical activities. (Do they pay the hall exorbitant fees we have around here?) The children were bored with one described by the mother as a brat.

Mouthy agitators on a power trip ignoring their kids.

Egosumquisum I don't think Jewish extremists had actually bombed anywhere or flown planes into office buildings prior to Germany marching into Austria in 1938

Tell that to my ds who is told constantly when entering a store or public building that he has take his hood down

IMO there is a difference between a hoodie and burka. Now if you said a nun had been asked to remove her habit headpiece or white coif but a woman in a Burka wasn't, that would be an issue for me.

I feel for the Muslim community at the moment. It is under attack and faces negative press, media attention, internet threads and are under pressure from so many sides. I bet most just want to live their lives peacefully

Totally agree with this ^^

I feel for the Muslim community at the moment. It is under attack and faces negative press, media attention, internet threads and are under pressure from so many sides

While I agree with this, isn't it true that some parts of the community have brought a lot of it on themselves through reluctance to deal with extremism in their midst? No rational person would blame all muslims, but what possible reason would the peaceful majority have for objecting to this kind of exposure?

Oliversmumsarmy I don't think Jewish extremists had actually bombed anywhere or flown planes into office buildings prior to Germany marching into Austria in 1938

The 1938 November progroms ("Kristallnacht") were organised by the Nazis in response to the assassination of German diplomat Ernst vom Rath in Paris by a young Jewish man whose family had been expelled from Germany by the Nazis:

On the morning of Monday, 7 November 1938, [the assassin, Herschel Grynszpan] purchased a revolver and a box of bullets, then went to the German embassy and asked to see an embassy official. After he was taken to the office of Ernst vom Rath, Grynszpan fired five bullets at Vom Rath, two of which hit him in the abdomen. Vom Rath was a professional diplomat with the Foreign Office who expressed anti-Nazi sympathies, largely based on the Nazis' treatment of the Jews, and was under Gestapo investigation for being politically unreliable. Grynszpan made no attempt to escape the French police and freely confessed to the shooting. In his pocket, he carried a postcard to his parents with the message, "May God forgive me ... I must protest so that the whole world hears my protest, and that I will do."

(from Wikipedia).

In my experience people who reject comparisons between islamophobia/xenophobia and Nazi persecution of Jews are often very ignorant of European history.

You should know what to expect from channel 4 documentaries by now - it's usually shaming or scaremongering. I don't give them the time of day.

Actually I am well aware of this point in history. Germany marched into Austria much earlier on in the year. The assasination was in response to what had been done to the Jews living in Austria thoughout the previous 7/8 months. Passports invalidated, property seized and worse.

So you believe that Germany marched into Austria in March 1938 and didn't do anything against the Jewish people till November 1938 until a Jewish guy killed a diplomat for no reason?

In my experience people who reject comparisons between islamophobia/xenophobia and Nazi persecution of Jews are often very ignorant of European history.

I am from Germany, and I got more education on the Nazis than I could ever want.

And no, it is not at all the same.

Jews were a minority in all of Europe and had no place where they were the majority. They kept their heads down and tried to not get in trouble while all sorts of ridiculous rules were instated that they had to follow.

While previous governments had allowed (even pushed) Jews to convert to Christianity, Hitler was racist against Jews. He did not care for religion, he was convinced there was a Jewish race, and planned genocide.

Compare that to Muslims who:

• have, and historically had their own countries were they are the majority and oppress others.
• actively try to convert others to their own religion (which Jews have never done, for various reasons)
• Are not persecuted for their race, but rather for their religion (and its connection to terrorism) alone.
• Actively work to be different from people following other religions, to the point of following a very specific dresscode. (German Jews looked just like everyone else, which is why Hitler forced them to year yellow stars on their clothes)

Hitler may have used that assassination as an excuse for his progroms, so that the common public would not rebel, but his racist hate against and plan to kill all Jews was made long before that.

By the end of the documentary I felt quite willing to subsidise Umm Whatever a one-way ticket to Syria, however sarcastic that sounds.

By the end of the documentary I felt quite willing to subsidise Umm Whatever a one-way ticket to Syria, however sarcastic that sounds

This ^ is the odd thing. Why are they here? They have this amazing Caliphate - There! She said " who would ever think in our life times we would see the caliphate" why did no one ask her - "so why arn't you going love" !

It all seemed quite sad and pathetic.

Has Channel4 moved on from the benefit-bashing documentaries to this now?
Pretty irresponsible in the current climate. I wonder how long it will be before someone who is or is perceived to look Muslim is murdered what with all the hate that is being stirred up.

VestalVirgin my German friends disagree with you.
Your dislike of Muslims comes through loud and clear in your post.
To address a few of your points, Muslims are not always the majority in a given country and are often themselves victims of persecution, eg Bosnia, Burma, China.
Judaism does not currently proselytise however it used to centuries ago. Both Christianity and Islam do. So what? Mostly it simply means people are welcomed into the faith if they wish to join.
Plenty of Muslims are persecuted for their religion/sect for reasons entirely unrelated to terrorism. See my examples above, or for instance Shia or Sunni minorities depending on region. Kurds are also Muslim and are persecuted albeit that is an ethnic conflict rather than a religious one.
Many Muslims do not actively work on looking different from the Western norm, it completely depends on someone's cultural background and level of devoutness.

Egosumquisum I don't think Jewish extremists had actually bombed anywhere or flown planes into office buildings prior to Germany marching into Austria in 1938

Sorry, completely wrong. The Stern Gang and the Irgun conducted a terror campaign against the British in Palestein, including the bombing of the. King David. Hotel that resulted in many deaths. There was also a plan to bomb the Houses of Parliament that was thwarted.

There is a long history of Jewish terrorism/freedom fighting.

oliversmumsarmy

I have never gotten religion and the will of God/Allah/whoever people worship etc. If it is an almighty beings will then why do people insist on helping these almighty beings to kill people by blowing things and themselves up. I am sure these almighty beings, if they are so almighty don't need help from anyone. IYSWIM

it's more about being a psychopath.

A very brief study of the last 100 years will make very clear that the worst atrocities in history were committed for reasons that were nothing to do with religion. Many if not most of them were committed in the name of ideologies that were explicitly atheist.

You can not legally sack someone for their beliefs, unless you can show these interfere with your ability to do your job. So the Careers Advisor can not be sacked if she keeps her beliefs outside of the workplace. Which I agree with.

Given the build up, it really was much ado about very little. Twenty women being barked at by someone with a personality disorder.

It would be strange though if you worked with that women. I wonder what her colleagues said when she went into work the next day?

If we understand more about each other, we can feel less afraid.
The mainstream media does a great job of focusing on things that shock us. This doesn't help to promote balanced views.

I read Zia Chaudhry's book and found it a good place to find some balance:

www.waterstones.com/book/just-your-average-muslim/zia-chaudhry/9781780722481

www.justyouraveragemuslim.com/

"I also strongly believe that the burka should be banned, who knows who is under that garment, it could be a woman or it could be a man."

And? What difference does it make who is underneath?...

Why is it helpful to know if someone you don't know is a man or a woman?

Do you think you can spot ISIS supporters if only they were wearing more revealing clothes? Because if you can, you should be out there doing it now, that's a talent I'm sure security agencies would pay vast sums of money for.

I don't think Jewish extremists had actually bombed anywhere or flown planes into office buildings prior to Germany marching into Austria in 1938

Sorry, completely wrong. The Stern Gang and the Irgun conducted a terror campaign against the British in Palestein, including the bombing of the. King David. Hotel that resulted in many deaths. There was also a plan to bomb the Houses of Parliament that was thwarted.

Babycham -most historians date the Irgun/Stern gangs to the early to mid 40s, so not before 1938 at all. Do you know better?

Would it be more accurate to compare Muslims to Germans in the 30s and 40s with the Nazis like ISIS? I am sure Germans in the UK were vilified/rounded up regardless of any Nazi sympathieS.

Yes Germans were put in containment camps in Britain during the war. And there was a lot of anti German sentiment in Britain, even though of course not all Germans supported the Nazis.

But we were at war with Germany.