to wish doctors weren't going on strike

[MissTriggs]

After 5 months of misdiagnoses, being sent to the wrong person, explaining why suggestions weren't helpful, holding my GP's hand and fighting to get to the right person I'm now booked in to have the test I need on 2nd December, the day after the strike.

If my test was on 1st December I'd be pretty upset

I then read a post on here from a junior doctor claiming s/he could make more money "as a manager at Greggs" and that tipped me over the edge.

I saw lots of posts from doctors saying they already work weekends but it turns out they get paid extra for this at present.

I think doctors have no idea what it is to work in a job where you can be sacked easily, where you don't know whether work is coming in from day to day, where your employers have no interest in getting you back to work after a career break and where you either have no pension or the value of your pension can fall from year to year and be worth nothing.
I also think they don't realise that, whilst a generation ago doctors might have been unusual in working antisocial hours, nowadays all professionals are expected to be available all the time.

I might be wrong, but I don't think I'm being unreasonable here.

If the Junior doctors were refusing to work excessive hours then people might support them,
but actually this is more about the fact that they want to make sure they earn lots of money for working out of hours.
The Consultants are supporting them as they are frightened that their own contracts will be held up to public scrutiny next.

The word "Professiona"l no longer really applies to many UK Doctors as as the majority of them refuse to be accountable for their own actions.
Many thousands of people have experienced incorrect care sometimes with life changing or ending consequences.
It is very rare to be able to get a doctor to take responsibility for their actions because the NHS and their fellow 'professionals' cover up their colleagues mistakes.

Really the BMA has just turned into a lobby group for its members' own self interest.

Band 8C nurses can retire in their mid 50's with a legal entitlement to over £1million in pension income from the NHS over the remainder of their lives.
The Doctors have an even more generous pension.

Why do junior doctors think that the rest of the (on average MUCH poorer than the doctors) population owes them a living at that level of munificence?

Three Cheers for Jeremy Hunt !

The UK population - as patients - and as taxpayers
(and most of us are only earning enough to be BASIC rate taxpayers., and can afford little or no pension provision for ourselves - Doctors please note)
wish him well
in his efforts to implement
responsible and affordable health care in the NHS.

Lanchester - are you actually Jeremy Hunt? Just asking because you are the only person I have come across (even in ardent Conservative supporters) who seems to think he's good. Even people who support massive changes in the NHS or privatisation seem to think he's a massive PR liability.

Lanchester why are you reviving all these threads to lick Jeremy Hunt's arsehole?

Because he/she is Jeremy Hunt. And like Jeremy Hunt is spouting a load of bollocks.

It seems wonkylegs, OvariesBeforeBrovaries and WhoAteAllTheDinosaurs
don't like people pointing out obviously true facts.
Perhaps you are in the trade as it were ?
and have an undeclared self interest in opposing JH's efforts ?

not true facts. If you believed anything other than your own propaganda you'd know that.

Anyway,

I don't understand the argument that Doctors etc should have shit pay and working conditions because other people do.

Firstly, a race to the bottom benefits nobody, except venture capitalists and our ruling classes; people fought and died for workplace rights and representation.

Secondly (and, as someone that works with consultants, I'm not someone to sanctify them); they are amongst the brightest and most capable people in the Nation's workforce. They have to achieve the best academic results and work commit themselves to significant extra-curricular work before getting into medical school. They then study for five or more years, before working 55+ hours per week for many years on a wage that is only just above the national average.

I absolutely don't want to demean other people or their professions, but pay and - possibly - conditions should be commensurate with the intellectual demands of a job and the level of study, work and experience required to get there.

I'd hazard a guess, OP, that your job may not require anything like that level of knowledge or commitment. That could be why you're paid less than a doctor?

The UK population - as patients - and as taxpayers
(and most of us are only earning enough to be BASIC rate taxpayers., and can afford little or no pension provision for ourselves - Doctors please note)
wish him well
in his efforts to implement
responsible and affordable health care in the NHS.

So, why don't you study/work harder and get a better job?

Lanchester Nope, I'm more likely to be a patient in a hospital than working there, so certainly not "in the trade".

I oppose Jeremy Hunt because I'm not a deluded twat.

Band 8C nurses can retire in their mid 50's with a legal entitlement to over £1million in pension income from the NHS over the remainder of their lives.
The Doctors have an even more generous pension.

Firstly, 8c and above comprise less than 5% of the nursing workforce; they're the senior nursing managers, responsible for - potentially - hundreds of staff, and hundreds of patients' lives.

Secondly, they can't retire in their mid fifties unless it's early retirement through ill-health. Psychiatric nurses with historic protected status may be able to retire early (due to the particularly physical demands of the role), but this has not applied to new staff for many years.

Thirdly, even if you began your nursing career at an 8c straight from university (absolutely unprecedented - most will achieve this bend much, much later in their career), you still wouldn't necessarily have accrued a £1m+ pension pot. The only way you could realise this kind of pension would be by living to 100+ years old, as it's a defined benefit scheme (therefore, there is no final 'pot').

You, Lanchester, are as badly informed as you are opinionated. Never a good combination.

Nope I'm a long term patient with a chronic condition and a well read individual who has informed herself of both sides of the argument. I will admit I do know plenty of drs (also lawyers, teachers, accountants, architects and many other professionals and non professionals too, ooo and even the odd politician).
I do not support JH because I personally find him to be a duplicitous weasel, who even if he did have a point (I don't think the evidence supports his position) has gone about his 'changes' in the worst way possible. I do not think the NHS is perfect in anyway but it will not be improved by the current plans.

WhoAteAlltheDinosaurs -

It is pretty obvious that there is a real problem with self interest groups in society mainly talking to only other people within those groups.
E.g. NHS Staff talking mainly to NHS Staff and their own relatives.

That process results in a self justifying and self reinforcing world view.

That can lead to an unattractive sense of 'Entiltlement' and Arrogance, and unawareness of the problems of people outside that self interest group.

Junior Hospital Doctors and NHS Staff in general have too much to lose if they recognise that too great a proportion of NHS resources is being spent on staff salaries conditions and pensions.
Therefore they convince themselves that they are hard done by.

The rest of the population cannot be expected to pay for this as they earn very little money on average, and certainly far less than NHS Medical staff and middle and senior nurses overall rewards package.

Patients and UK Citizens as a whole
need a sensible proportion of NHS Funding to be spent on Patient care and NOT Millions of pounds in Pensions and Early retarement at age 55 on index linked final salary pensions,
and NOT millions of pounds of NHS money being spent on Lawyers trying to avoid responsibility for the medical negligence of a minority of doctors who their colleagues are too frightened to report as dangerous or negligent.
We need openness and honesty in the NHS.

You may not like to hear those facts, but they are empirical facts none the less.

I do not like George Osborne's approach to cuts, as they seem to be targeted at the poor rather than the wealthy in society.
I want the NHS to provide good healthcare free at the point of delivery.
BUT this accelerating sense of entitlement and defensiveness by NHS Staff is at the expense of quality of healthcare for everyone in the country.
Junior Doctors and Consultants should be complaining about anyone having to work more than 60 hours per week.
They should not be complaining that they are not paid enough.

The rest of the population cannot be expected to pay for this

I wasn't aware that doctors, nurses and everyone who works in the NHS don't pay income tax.

Babycham,
Your facts are wrong and I encourage you to read the NHSBA website where they clearly show NHS Pension Benefits that are due to staff.
There are HUGE numbers of nurses who are now in their mid 50's and on Special Category jobs. You need to inform yourself better if you genuinely do not know that.
They will be on the 1995 scheme and so their FULL pension can be taken at their normal retirement age - i.e. 55 years old !
He / she could then retire at 55 years old perhaps having purchased 'Added Years' at favourable rates to bring herself up to 40 years service in the scheme (say she joined at age 18).
The NHS Scheme is an unfunded scheme and is supported by all taxpayers as a whole.
Benefits on the 1995 scheme are based on the BEST annual salary received in any of the final three years before retirement.
So a nurse could have been earning say 45K for many years but received a promotion at age 53 which raised her salary to 60K.
so that at age 55 and her annual pension would be for evermore based on the £60,000 salary level.
At age 55 that would give her about a £100,000 tax free lump sum on retirement,
and she would receive over £30,000 pension per year also.
Because the pension is index linked for inflation and backed by the taxpayers, she has a legal entitlement to
a total pension income in excess of 1 million pounds at current money values
assuming she lives to about 89-90 as is likely if she is in good health when she retires at 55.

Doctors receive even higher pensions than nurses.

sigh someone fed it. To paraphrase Twain; the problem with arguing with the chronically stupid is that they bring you down to their level then beat you with experience.

ovaries Lanchester is a single-issue poster who rather coincidentally appears to have joined MN around the time the doctors voted to strike and the smear campaign started.

I leave you to draw your own conclusions.

Lanchester,

how do you know there are 'huge' numbers of mid-50s nurses with special catageory protection? How many are there? What pay bands are they on, and how many years' service have the accrued? Nope? Thought not.

Exactly, the 1995 scheme was abandoned for a more affordable alternative. You could say the same about any historic gold-plated pension scheme from any sector or employer.

Th NHS scheme is, ostensibly, 'unfunded'. This doesn't actually mean that there are no in-career contributions, rather that the Government spends them when it receives them, and commits to effectively refund them upon retirement.

I, for example, pay £1,000 a month, and my employer pays a similar amount into the scheme. I would actually, be perfectly happy to see this accrue in a defined contribution scheme. However, George Osborne is currently spending it on paying interest on the record (and growing) debts he's accrued since becoming Chancellor of the Exchequer. A private scheme would deprive the exchequer of this revenue.

The 1995 scheme WAS based on final salary. However, the current scheme is based on average salary. Good for someone like me, on a high salary early in life, not so good for the example you cite of someone who attains seniority late in their career (ie the majority of the workforce).

The psnsion is linked to CPI, not RPI. It will, therefore, diminish in real terms value during most years of accrual (until the house price bubble bursts, anyway).

I'd love to track your IP address; as someone else has intimated, I can't help but wonder if you're posting from Conservative Central Office....

Jeremy, is that you!?

Babycham 1979

FYI:

1. The 2008 scheme was Final Salary also. Things only changesd in 2015, and previous accumulated rights are protected. Furthermore the 2015 changes mean that average career salary is used from 2015 onwards for new pension rights accruing after that date, and as we know Doctors can earn a good salary from a much earlier age than most people. Junior Doctors will still be in a PRIVILEGED position compared to most of society regarding the excellent overall career remuneration and pension rewards they will receive.

If you personally are putting in £1000 per month to your NHS pension scheme per month, you obviously feel it is a very good deal for you. You havent mentioned whether that includes ppurchasing 'added years' which have been available at very favourable rates for some staff, and you have not said whether your contributions are before or after income tax relief on your contributions.
Regardless of all that the NHS will be paying over 14% into your pension scheme each month. That is about twice what even good private sector employers pay into pension schemes for their employees.
Despite all that funding the benefits paid to NHS Pensioners have to be substantially funded by the Exchequer.

2. www.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/Pensions/Documents/Pensions/Special_Class_Factsheet_V2.0_07.2013.pdf

Any of the workers listed below who started work before March 1995 and who have not taken any continuous carreer break of greater than 5 years will have 'Special Class' status.

Certain groups of staff that were members of the NHS Pension Scheme before
6 March 1995 are known as the Special Classes. They are:
 Nurses
 Physiotherapists
 Midwives
 Health Visitors
Student nurses and occupational health nurses are included in the above

In Jeremy Hunts constituency, all childrens healthcare has been sold off to a private profit making business. It is free to users but the NHS pays an additional premium to use the facilites. this is definetily the thin end of the wedge.