to wish doctors weren't going on strike

[MissTriggs]

After 5 months of misdiagnoses, being sent to the wrong person, explaining why suggestions weren't helpful, holding my GP's hand and fighting to get to the right person I'm now booked in to have the test I need on 2nd December, the day after the strike.

If my test was on 1st December I'd be pretty upset

I then read a post on here from a junior doctor claiming s/he could make more money "as a manager at Greggs" and that tipped me over the edge.

I saw lots of posts from doctors saying they already work weekends but it turns out they get paid extra for this at present.

I think doctors have no idea what it is to work in a job where you can be sacked easily, where you don't know whether work is coming in from day to day, where your employers have no interest in getting you back to work after a career break and where you either have no pension or the value of your pension can fall from year to year and be worth nothing.
I also think they don't realise that, whilst a generation ago doctors might have been unusual in working antisocial hours, nowadays all professionals are expected to be available all the time.

I might be wrong, but I don't think I'm being unreasonable here.

Because solidarity strikes are illegal in the UK.
I cannot go on strike about nurses terms and conditions.
Nor am I a GP so I have no involvement in their contract negotiations either.
I choose to speak out on matters I know about to correct misconceptions. Nurses are at liberty to do the same and I will support them as nurses are doing for us.

You are confusing individual people's decisions with public policy implications.
No individual dr on this thread or any other I have seen has said that they will be 'driven into the private sector'. I will go on doing my job for whatever pay because I have already told you a lot of times that I don't do it for the money. I do it because I like helping people and I have skills and abilities that allow me to do that.

Junior Drs cannot work in the private sector. The private sector only employs fully trained Drs. They are stuck with the national contract. Their only choices are to quit or go abroad.

However. As a policy matter overall and over time it stands to reason that if you pay people less it is likely that less people will want to do that job. Some will still do it out of pure altruism but others will conclude it is not worthwhile. If they can do an easier job for the same money they will. This will operate within medicine to drive recruitment down even further in A&E and acute specialties and outside medicine to cause the brightest and best people to choose other careers.

The way that privatisation will happen will not be by individual Drs choosing to leave and go private. It will be by private companies bidding for and winning contracts to run NHS services. My Trust just wasted millions fighting off a bid from Virgin. Hinchingbrooke Hospital was privatised and look what an amazing success that was.

One issue though mamadoc, is that except in the public sector most private sector workers since about 2007 i the UK have had pay cuts and no rises at all, not even 1% rises. We have rarely had such a period of pay contraction in the UK at all levels,. Even for lawyers it is only just starting to get back to what it was. Plenty of people were also moved against their will and despite mortgages to pay down to 4 days a week from 5. So it is not a normal situation on pay in the UK as we have used to have.

I certanily picked law because I thought I'd enjoy it more and it was better paid and a nicer environment. I am glad I did. It is interesting my consultant brother wants to retire from the NHS at 55 and i am happy to work until I die. I have total control over my life and destiny and work for myself. He is within the vast administrative behemoth of NHS with its managers and all the rest and I suspect I enjoy things more and have more power and control than he does.

I have just come from an NHS hospital this morning - I have a grand child - great celebrations. I remain a supporter of the NHS and am sure the Government and JDs will work out some compromise.

no one actually got a 1% pay rise deo.

Yes, I know but pay rises are coming and the state sector has not done quite as badly as the public sector in terms of pay for the last 5 years (admittedly for the first time ever). www.employeebenefits.co.uk/nhs-staff-to-receive-1-pay-rise/

Oh congratulations on becoming a grandmother, DeoGratias.

stopping Their nanny costs that much because of the hours worked. I suggest you open your eyes to the reality of being on call. If both parents are on call they need childcare during those hours so they can return to the hospital if needed. The NHS doesn't work with them regarding their schedule so they have a nanny who works with them. They would love to have 2 nannies because there are weeks when the nanny is there all day and night. It's too much really for one person.

Now they could go PT but it would take much longer to qualify and the drop in salary would result in an equal decrease in childcare costs. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Sorry - the drop in salary would be more than the decrease in childcare costs.

In 16 years, had I not gone for a more senior post, my take home pay would have increased by £300pm. This is nursing, the responsibility the job entails in the acute setting deserves more. Don't believe everything you read .

Anyway, sorry, back to the docs ...

Stopping, can I suggest you're not prepared for life as a doctor and you'd be wasting your parents money by doing a course that's totally unsuited to you? I mean this kindly. The Daily Mail might have some staff positions going.

want2be Again, many professions involve being on call and the parents have to do it on a lower wage. I'm well aware of the reality of being on call.

margo

My parents have nothing to do with you, or my education, come to that. I'm not as young as you think...though wish I was! And yes, if moaning and having a romanticised/dismissive view of every other profession is integral to the job, I'm doomed

mamadoc Please don't be disingenuous and pretend that nurses have the clout that doctors do. You could have kicked up a stinking great fuss and you didn't.

They are stuck with the national contract.

I wonder if doctors in the states would see it quite like that. The doctors in this country haven't paid for anything approaching the cost of what it's taken to educate them. I'm quite glad they can't flee the nest immediately.

Yes I'm on call as an auditor 24/7 but I can do about 75% of my work on my phone and the remaining 25% from my laptop at home. I don't need a nanny to look after my kids. I stick frozen on and plough through the work plus I have a high income DH so I hire a college kid if extended hours and DH isn't around.

Doctors when on call nearly always end up going back to the hospital. My friend and her DH have individually have never gone a week with being able to avoid going in on call. My friend has never completed an on call shift without attending.

You're ranting. Stop the words now.

(My comment was to Stopping.)

DeoGratis while it is true that private sector wages have stagnated since the financial crisis, this is much more true of low earners than of higher earners at an equivalent skill/ qualification level to a JD. I don't know anyone at my professional level who hasn't had annual pay rises in the last few years.

Stopping, it's difficult to understand what point you are trying to make. You have agreed that doctors shouldn't be given a pay cut and that long hours are dangerous. Now you just seem to want to have a rant about doctors - not any doctor in particular, just all of them. But you want to be a doctor.

Misti, well I have been trying to get a fee I am paid increased which has not increased in 15 years! They refused to increase it so I've stopped that work. Howevr I agree that in general we have seen lower pay reducing or staying the same and some higherp aid people getting a bit of a rise,although not really very big. Some lawyers are still not on what new lawyers were earning before the credit crunch hit for example.

JD are doing a fairly good job with their PR at the moment. It will be interesting to see what happens. I certainly would not want to accept a pay cut although I sometimes have over the years.

Congratulations indeed Deo.
I have enjoyed debating with you and the OP.

My DH is a private sector worker who lost his job in the recession so I am not at all unaware of the impact of the recession on private sector jobs. It had an impact on our family personally but that was back in 2007 and since then things have been gradually recovering. The effects spread to the public sector much later hence the pay freeze. The new proposals to cut pay are in my view ideological in pursuit of a smaller state rather than necessary since the economy is recovering. You think that's a good thing I don't but I respect your right to hold that view.

The government however does not have a mandate to cut or privatise the NHS. They in fact promised not to cut it in their election manifesto. They need to do it by stealth because they know the public won't vote for it. If it was an honest argument and I am on the losing side I would accept that.

Stopping I am afraid I am finding 'talking' to you much less enjoyable. Your tone is aggressive and you are willing to make no concessions at all to alternative viewpoints which makes the reader feel you are not listening. You keep saying that I have not answered points that I have done. You contradict yourself and are not articulating a coherent view. I am going to stop engaging with you for the above reasons.

I am disengaging from the thread for those same reasons mamadoc. The posts seem to suggest JDs shouldnt strike because they dont work as hard as lawyers. Or that everyone should be paid exactly the same whether they are an experienced consultant with lots of post grad exams or a health care assistant (not that some of those people dont do an amazing jos and of course they arent paid well enough for it)

There is also the suggestion that I havent paid lots of tax over the years or paid into my own pension . I am not on a tax avoidance scheme BTW
(It is a good pension and better than it will be in future for other workers -maybe I should turn it down despite the many many hours I have worked for free or for very little income) Would many other people that ?
It is extremely sad that it comes down to these extremely petty arguments and that people are unable to see the bigger picture -that the principles of the NHS are being challenged and the JDs are the only folk doing anything about it

Omg now people are explaining the pension too!

i need to catch up but....

today I was with a gp friend and he started a similar discussion about dentists! wonder if a dentist will turn up now...:)

It's going to be difficult for stopping to make it through her med school interview and hide the weight of the enormous chip she carries with her.

I think constantly trying to explain to people who not only have little understanding and knowledge of healthcare but are antagonistic to doctors for whatever reason is completely pointless and at this time, it doesn't even matter whether public opinion is against us...its not about that at all it's about an unfair unsafe contract and the backstory of intentionally demoralising and demonising medical staff with the contract imposition, the media lies and the so called health secretary 's demolitition of healthcare in this country. Look forward to having first class homeopathy care though!!

What they don't get and god knows Jeremy hunt hasn't a clue, is that if the NHS goes there will be no healthcare system... It's not as if there is a fully fledged private system ready and waiting to step in we all know the private system is just for outpatient care and safe elective surgery.

It's demoralising to defend yourselves to people when the media is just acting on the govt behalf and demonising the medical profession.
We don't need public backing to strike, we know it's the right thing to do and if people don't want to understand or trust us about what is really happening it doesn't matter.

Don't waste time and energy on this meaningless discussion.

I rather thought that I had helped some of the more reasonable people to see our POV

I have definitely wasted too much time on this thread. I had been deliberately ignoring them as I knew I'd get sucked in. I won't do it again but it has helped my own ability to argue the points succinctly to have to do it again and again!

Today I had much the same conversation IRL with an accountant friend (but I do overtime and don't get paid, they are raising pay aren't they, it's all about money) and was able to convince him of the real case.

It is complicated and hard to explain and JH is doing a very good job of spinning for the government so I think we should try to counter where we can with the real facts.

Having public sympathy is important. The action alone will not make any difference. We can't take any very effective action because it risks patient safety we can only do mild inconvenience but if the government see that they are acting against public opinion they might change their minds.

I have learnt from this thread:

Our best arguments are

1. This is a 30% pay cut for junior Drs overall which is unfair.

(There will be pay protection for current Drs but those coming into the same job next year will be paid far less)

1. Removing penalties for excessive hours will endanger public safety
2. Removing incentives for antisocial hours will drive Drs away from frontline work such as A&E and this will make for a worse not better service.

Any explanation about the difficulty of the job is seen as whinging.
Any talk about Drs going overseas or private engenders a negative response as this is seen as disloyal and as blackmail rather than realism.