to think it is time Europe had border checks again?

[yolofish]

In the light of the awful Paris events... I can remember the days when you drove between European countries and there were passport checks at the borders, which at least meant the authorities knew roughly who was where. Even today, you cannot leave the British Isles, whether by air, rail or sea, without a proper passport, and in (I think most of mainland?) Europe you need to carry an ID card to fly/or just to walk about your local streets.

Maybe I'm being naive, and all or some of the perpetrators are born within the country where they commit their crimes, but it just seems to me that free entry to a country doesn't mean that a country shouldn't know who is within their boundaries.

I cannot remember a time when border checks held us up, and with new technology (number plate recognition, scannable passports etc) it would surely be possible? After all, France can operate toll motorways pretty effectively...

I get the freedom of movement within the EU thing, but I still think it would be good to know who is where. What am I missing?

It's interesting how when you fly from outside the EU into the Schengen area, there are border police waiting at the end of the bridge, checking your right to enter the EU before you step onto "native soil" - I change planes a lot in Amsterdam, Paris and Munich, and this happens every time I am coming from the Middle East or Africa. For whatever reason, we don't do this - I've often wondered why.

As for Merkel's invitation: reckless and irresponsible - it's encouraging more people to pay out to people smugglers and make an extremely dangerous journey from situations in which conditions are most certainly sub-optimal (Syrian refugees living in Turkey, say) but not imminently dangerous. Apart from that, by encouraging the mass migration of vulnerable people, she's encouraging denuding these countries of their middle classes (the poor certainly can't afford the fees - it's well over a year's average wage from Eritrea, for example), and in the case of places like Syria, resettling people in Europe ensures that they will never return "home" permanently. In the case of minorities, such as the Yezidis and the Christians, who have been in the region for well over a thousand years, this has a serious impact for the future - and their future. Of course, it is also what ISIS actually wants - a Middle East free of pesky non-Sunni Muslims.

Rant over. (And it's not to say we shouldn't offer refuge or asylum - but blanket policies cause social harm to the vulnerable people that the system should protect. Guess the rant wasn't quite over :-D)

What was it like between say Belgium and Germany ?

Whilst there technically were boarder controls quite a few places didn't really have them, there might be a hut with someone waving cars through, there might not.

misti everytime we leave for France via Eurotunnel, we go through pretty stringent security checks - scanning beneath the car is automatic

I have taken euortsar a couple of times by car and never ever been aware of car being scanned underneath.

have also taken ferry and had a car full of stuff and no checks.

we go quite often by Eurotunnel, and I fly to France for work quite often. At Eurotunnel, all cars/vehicles are automatically scanned as you drive across a pit type thingy. its also very common to be stopped, asked where you are going, how long for, and for a drugs swab to be done - this is on the way out. Coming back, the French authorities do passport checks, and I'm guessing they have numberplate recognition both sides. At the airports, surely the passport control is the bit you go through before you get airside - passport checks, body scans, chuck away your liquids etc. The airlines then check your passport/boarding card to make sure you are getting on the right plane.

I simply do not believe that free, unexamined flow of people in or out of countries is the right thing to do. Yes of course there will be loopholes, country roads, etc etc, but better to do something than nothing IMO.

Interesting post, Hefzi.

YABU. Britain is not part of Schengen zone so we don't get to tell those countries to have border checks.

yolofish I have repeatedly left for France before six a.m. and never been stopped by human agency.

Yes, we don't get to tell them to have border checks.
But I still think they should.
This Schengen method of doing things seems flawed.

Mr Corybn just said he "enjoys" the free movement around Europe.

I do too.

But if putting back proper border checks means they have more of a grip on who is where, I would rather give up my "enjoyment" of free movement, for the safety of us all.

I was quite surprised last year - we drove from Scotland to Tuscany via a ferry obviously into France and then Switzerland and finally Italy without showing our passports once. They were checked in Calais on the way back but that was by UK Border Control I think.

Careful Laguna All that might change . . . Border Control at Berwick? Customs at Carter Bar?

Haha! Expecting to get to at least Dover without showing our passports next year!

hefzi your post chimes very much with thoughts I had over the weekend. Allowing/encouraging migration into Europe is always portrayed as a massive plus, but closer inspection that all the benefits are for Europe with very little left over for the 'host' communities of the migrants.

In medialand migrants are always valuable nurses, and professionals, who make a huge contribution to the economy and enrich our society with different cultural traditions. I'm not denying that any of that is true, but what I would love to know is what percentage of migrant workers are just doing shit, dead end jobs for crap money, jobs that no one from the spoilt, entitled west wants to do. I would imagine that most migrant workers are picking veg in freezing fields in Lincolnshire, cleaning hospitals and offices at night and working in all night convenience stores on zero hours contracts.

However pitiful the amount of money they get paid seems here, it goes a long way in their home countries and they are under huge pressure from their own families to come to Europe, get jobs and send money home.

I was reading about young men in Gambia, who are more or less forced to risk their lives to come to Europe. Their families expect it, and it can damage their marriage prospects if they don't come. In one village over a quarter of their young men have left, some die on the trip and many never return. This must be damaging the culture and social structures of their home societies.
And this applies to many other places too. Obviously countries where they are wars are exceptions, but Gambia is just a bit hopeless and crap! It needs proper development to enable these young people to have good jobs and employment opportunities at home.

Migration and movement of people is a positive thing, but to me it seems like Europe is sucking in cheap labour from the poorest countries in the world just to service our bloated and selfish lifestyle, it is almost like a reverse colonialism, and yet it is sold to us as wholly beneficial with no thought as to the cost to other countries.

So do you think we should refuse to allow those who have valuable skills to come here because they are taking value from their home countires?

Should West Germany have refused to allow East German doctors to settle before the Wall was build when they could cross in Berlin, or after if they were lucky enough to get out?

The wierd thing about the UK is that people keep whinging about wanting tighter security, and yet object to having identity cards!

No of course not, I thought my post made that quite clear.

I would, however, be interested to know the relative proportion on migrants working in skilled jobs and those in low pay low skilled jobs.

I'm surprised you got through Switerzerland Laguna. Have always been stopped on the Swiss border and you have to pay road tax, even just for a trip of a few hours.

IndridCold The benefits for Europe of "importing" doctors ready-trained at the expense of their home countries are enormous as is the downside to those home countries. The downside to the home country of unskilled people coming here to do the crap jobs is not easy to see.

If either is colonial exploitation it is taking their skilled people; so I am glad to see that you don't, in the end, but into the people-as-property view of the East German government (and the others in the Soviet Bloc; but it was only the East Germans who had somewhere they could definitely go) who eventually "sold" them to the West Germans for a price based on their qualifications.

The downside to the home country of unskilled people coming here to do the crap jobs is not easy to see.

If you don't mind me saying so, it is your view that seems to be fairly close to people as property, if you cannot see any downside.

Don't you ever wonder where the Africans who clean the city offices at night live? I bet it's somewhere pretty horrendous, especially if they are having to send money home. I was listening to the Malian musician Juldeh Camara today, and at the start of one of his songs he says 'This is for the youth, don't forget where your grandfather came from!' and this is what started this train of thought.

The people who have to come here to do the work are isolated from their families, and their home cultures, and their home towns are losing large segments of their young people. The fact that migrants in Europe are sending enough money home may keep their families comfortably, but it may also be providing a disincentive to improve education and job opportunities in their own countries.

To my eyes the long term effect of this could be hugely damaging to a country, but if you have evidence that this is not happening then I would be reassured. Sadly, I suspect that there is no evidence, because no one has actually bothered to find out!

It is not wrong that people are freely able to move to other countries to improve their life opportunities, but it is wrong if they have to. And it is wrong that by dwelling exclusively on the economic benefits that accrue to Europe, we are ignoring problems that we are creating elsewhere, if indeed those problems exist.

But, surely... if you were coming into Europe to do "bad things" then, even with border checks, you would find a way to get in. Fake documents, sneak across the middle of some fields instead of driving down a road, hide in the back of someone's car. I really don't see how border checks could be said to be a reliable way of checking where people are. I mean, yes you will know where all the reliable law abiding people are, but they are not the ones you are interested in anyway...

Agreed: there is a downside to the home countries in people coming here to do the crap jobs; much less than in highly- and expensively-educated people using their training here rather than at home.

But for us to say that either group should not come because of disadvantage to the home country (as opposed to disadvantage to us) - that would be "people as property" thinking.

When the Helsinki Declaration first laid down in terms that people have a right to leave any country including their own country it did not make an exception for where that would inflict economic of social damage on the home country. And quite right too.

But, surely... if you were coming into Europe to do "bad things" then, even with border checks, you would find a way to get in

Of course but why make it so easy?

Should we just drop all security and borders everywhere?

I agree with post above about all the supposed plus points of free movement and all the rest.

I personally think all the down sides out weigh the good including people with cars loaded with weapons able to freely drive from country to country.

I had a good read of the peodophile thread that was running ages ago, may be in the news section now.

It was clear, sex traffickers were also taking advantage of free movement to ship sex slaves around.

It was also clear that amazingly, countries do not share clear and concise info with each other about offenders.

I cant understand this when you have open borders.

The whole thing seems to be the worst thought out thing ever.