To not really have much sympathy?

[cailindana]

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/nov/14/babies-an-impossible-dream-the-millennials-priced-out-of-parenthood#comment-63353806

The writer complains that she can't have babies because she resents the idea of moving out of London.

Others in the article complain they can't afford houses and so won't have children.

AIBU to think that yes house prices are mad but if you really 'dream' of having babies then there are ways to make that happen and it's not 'impossible' unless you are unfortunate enough to be infertile (in which case there may be other options if you are willing to consider adoption/fostering).

I have to say the whole thing comes across to me as a bit whiny.

YANBU

I refuse to compromise on anything = no sympathy

We have done everything possible within our abilities to make the numbers work = much sympathy indeed

In all honesty the numbers can seem to work before you have the carefully planned child and it can still all go pear shape.

We couldn't have afforded a second child in Surrey (where we lived and commuted to graduate jobs in London) so we sold our house and moved and now rent, and have 3 kids, and do different jobs.

Staying near family and friends is a luxury many of us do forfeit - I do find the "why should I move away from my family and friends" argument whiny - I grew up "up north" in a picturesque rural area full of houses bought as second homes and holiday lets and to retire to, with very little employment in the area aside from seasonal tourism of course a few public sector jobs, and and also pretty much had to move if I actually wanted a job... Different problem, same outcome

The UK housing situation needs sorting but the solution IMO is to sort the rental market - its stupid that people are so hung up on buying and the private rental market needs a massive regulation overhaul so that renting is a secure long term option, the way it is in many European countries.

People also need to stop looking at the baby boomer generation as the "norm" and realise they are a historical anomaly, a blip, and ignore parents like mine who think their children have failed if they don't own a house, and their daughters have failed if they aren't both smashing the glass ceiling and earning 100k in a management job and raising a gaggle of children while maintaining a respectable happy marriage with an equally career-successful husband.

A bit of re-calibration is needed. In the housing market and people's expectations of themselves and their adult children.

The capital city shouldn't be so expensive no one can afford to raise children there. But it's not, people are raising children in London everyday of the week. No one can deny that.

The people in this article remind me of some of my friends in their late 20s/ early 30s- they genuinely believed children would never happen for them. No partner, no massive house. It all seemed impossible. They've all
Managed it now. It's just 20s angst- why is become a serious news article I have no idea.

Sorry but that goes down as one of the most ridiculous articles I have ever read.

£211000 for a starter home!!! 17% deposit!!!! Sorry but I deal in that end of the market and pick up 1 bedders for under £100k regularly. Usually after they have been turned down by 1st time buyers because they want the moon thrown in.

At some point you have to call it a day with your career if it doesn't pay enough to afford a small flat and a family. I know a lot of people who have children who live in 1 bedroom flats. it is possible.

Have the women in question actually done the maths of how much their job actually pays after expenses. Wouldn't they be better off working in their local Lidl or Tesco or do they prefer to keep up a front.

As for the comment on baby boomers. A much smaller %age went to university than today. Personally dh and I needed to raise about £7000 before we could afford a tiny studio because our salaries were so small. (I came out with £80 per month. That is less than £4 per day.) Like everyone we knew we went out and worked not just our "career" jobs but 2/3 others as well. Things were definitely not handed to us on a plate as a lot of people seem to think. We also had a recession with 3 million unemployed and 3 day weeks to contend with.

It does surprise me how under used low cost home ownership incentives are in London- I work for a developer. Demand isn't high really.

But if I were young and in London I'd be all over shared ownership, exactly the way my friends and I were all over 110% mortgages in the early 2000s which was what enabled us all to buy London properties.

YABU. The only people I know with kids in London now are on benefits or on banking. Except one woman who's a landlord.

Everyone else I know - middle class media types - moved out pronto, because they couldn't afford housing (and the state schools were unappealing).

I know loads of people in London with kids. Friend (aged 30, single parent social worker) just had a beautiful little girl by her longterm bf who she split with just after the birth, she also has a boy from another relationship.

Another friend has 2 children, she is a teaching assistant. Another works for her local council. Saying you cannot afford to have children and live in London is silly. Of course you can and people do, they just don"t wait to live in 4 bed detached houses before they have children.

Oliversmumsatmy - do you think it should be that way? That everyone should go through what you did - to work 3 jobs to be able to own a home? It shouldn't, you know it shouldn't.

Exactly. You can get 2 bed flats in many areas for £250-300k. If you can't afford that you probably can't afford anything better in commuter belt.

YANBU.

I have a modicum of sympathy for these women. It's tough out here in the big wide world. I mean that seriously. Part of growing up is being realistic and lowering your expectations.

They all want the Victorian terrace in leafy London, decor inspired by the White Company, with a giggling little Matilda/Caspar bumbling around whilst they enjoy flexible working hours as a journalist/blogger/internet start-up. Don't forget the husband who works in finance in the city or something as equally well-paid.

You might laugh but I have known so many women like this. Eventually they realise that this is a dream and leave London.

I wish more people would consider whether they can actually afford having children before they have them.

As a Londoner who no longer lives in London because we couldn't possibly afford it and have what we consider a bare minimum of a lifestyle if we want to and have children, i do have sympathy.

However, the reason I left my exHusband was that he wanted to have a nice house first, continue a couple of holidays a year, go to gigs/concerts/buy expensive things etc before we considered having children. We worked for 7 years and owned a 1 bedroom (spacious) garden flat near Crystal Palace and he wouldn't even consider contemplating having a baby. He said we needed 2 bedrooms at least and we just couldn't afford it. I wanted a baby desperately. I realised he was never going to be willing to make the type of compromises we would need to to have child. It was hard but i left him. He still lives in London (with my best friend) and they have no children. For some people i do think they don't want it enough. DH is the same. As much as he loves the DC he would never have given up what he considers a 'basic lifestyle' to have them. (Whereas i would pretty much have done any job and lived anywhere - not that i'm saying that's the way it should be of course. It really shouldn't.)

With 2 small children and no life and no possibility of going back to work i can kind of see their point actually!

Everyone i know in London with dc either are heavily subsidised or are loaded. Those on a middling income just couldn't afford it.

Looked on Zoopla and found a 2 bed terrace in Romford for £250k or similar in Hounslow. I assume Ms Guardian would expect Islington or Battersea at least!

Here's the thing with kids. You find ways to pay for them. High prices and costs of living don't stop people from having kids. They're living a pipe dream if they think kids aren't going to impact their wages anyway when one of them has to bump down their hours for when daycare closes.

Yes, MrsDV, and we make the compromises that people were so keen on upthread. I'm in my 50s, and in quite a senior job. Because of some financial help given to my dp years ago by her dad, we're able to live in a 4 bed house in a pleasant area. But sure enough, there are compromises: we live in Zone 6, our house is fugly and on a busy main road, we don't have a car or a dishwasher and we almost never go on holiday. I buy everything second hand. I'm not getting out the tiny violin for that, but it's a reality that I have accepted and paid the compromises necessary to stay in my hometown and follow my career. But I'm a winner compared to my young colleagues, and I"m a winner compared to someone stuck in a town with no real career opportunities. It's not a good situation for anyone except for the mega-rich who are creaming up obscene profits from the London property market.

To clarify - i don't mean with dc that are older or they bought a while ago. I mean people who are having their children now and looking to buy now.

I am surprised at Hounslow being that 'cheap'. I looked there at some truly grim 1 bed flats in transport hell about 13 years ago and they were on for 140k (too much for us). It was really depressing to know you can't even afford somewhere that you hated. Also 250k is massive. What would you both have to earn for that? (and then take out childcare and commuting costs) And have about 35k savings for a deposit - who can save that?

We did move from West London to SE London and agree with MrsD it may as well have been moving a long way away. We knew no one and had no support system there at all - which also meant children were less realistic for us.

Well clearly loads of people do manage to have babies in London, the maternity wards are busting at the seams. The women I saw didn't all look loaded, plenty looked hard up etc. It's really impossible to know everyone's story etc but somehow throughout all of history, through worse times than today, women have had their babies. They will continue to do so.

There's another thread on here about words of wisdom. My wonderful grandmother said that if you waited until the time was exactly right for babies it never would be.

one of the issues though, that this doesn't really touch on - is the student loans and the high cost of living as a tenant in London, plus the level of deposits needed, means that a lot of 20-somethings are just missing that first step on the property ladder, the small 1 bed flat to be live in for 5 years or so, paying down the mortgage/rising in value to give a bigger deposit for the next stage, the 2/3 bed flat/house to have a family in.

There is also the problem the way mortgages are checked for afforablity now, means that if you are struggling to get a big enough mortgage to buy before you have DCs, it writes it off as an option for the next 5 years if you don't have free family childcare, couple that with the view that a lot of landlords won't rent to people with children, and it makes sense that many feel they have to buy before they start a family if they are ever going to be able to buy - yet a 2 bed place feels unreachable.

That said, it is often a shock to London friends just how low house prices are outside London but still within a sensible commute time - many do seem to think it's a bit cheaper but only significantly if it's 2+ hours commute.

They may also be missing their first step on the career ladder, Dinosaur. We get lots of MN threads saying why oh why do people stay in London. But it's a problem for all of us who have dc who may one day wish to pursue a career that is best started in London.

Romford ain't London it's Essex. But it is commutable. When I worked in London many people lived in Essex and commuted in. Just saying if you HAVE to work in London not everywhere is in the millions. Priorities really.

I agree the article is a bit whiney but then I think young people have good cause to whine.
On the whole, I find them extra-ordinarily good humoured about it all.

Romford is London it's in the borough if havering